[hackerspaces] Hackers, feminism, and bullying

[Kevin Mitnick]

Al,
How do you know that I am not female? Or not of a minority?
Requesting civility and being coherent does not mean that I am trying to suggest that you do not speak at all. On the contrary, it's better to discuss the whole matter rather than focus on certain lines and cry afoul when the overall message hasn't been altered.
If you were standing in my way, should I then tell you to "get out of the way" or be polite and say "excuse me"? Let's have a discussion, not a short series of words from a website.
Kevin Mitnick(May or may not be the Kevin you think I am)

Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:29:00 -0800
From: albill at openbuddha.com
To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Hackers, feminism, and bullying


                
                    AKA "woman or other minority raises concern, dominant group responds with criticisms of how concern was stated rather than addressing concern."
                
                
-- Al Billingshttp://www.openbuddha.comhttp://makehacklearn.org

                 
                On Friday, January 18, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Al Billings wrote:
                
                    
                
                    It has been linked to before, not that people bothered to read it.
                
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
                
-- Al Billingshttp://www.openbuddha.comhttp://makehacklearn.org

                  
                On Friday, January 18, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:
                    Al are you attempting to create new terms or is that like a thing somewhere?
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Al Billings <albill at openbuddha.com> wrote:aka "Tone Policing"
--Al Billingshttp://www.openbuddha.comhttp://makehacklearn.org
On Friday, January 18, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Kevin Mitnick wrote:
Rachel,
I think that it is rather accusatory of you to think that I am generalizinghere. You selectively removed my statement that I may be wrong on myjudgement of your character. Here's the line in question in its entirety:
Your statement in my mind gives me the perception of you being a bully,but being that we're in a virtual space, the words you use may notnecessarily indicate that you're the person I think you might be.
You took offense to the use of "bully" and I don't blame you, but I think itwas rather ill-advised for you to remove the statement that my perception ofyou may be wrong just like how your perception of me could be wrong too. Ihave never met you and as a result do not have any prejudice towards you. Ithink it's rather disingenuous of you to focus on this one particular lineand then not bother to work with the statements I made later on.
I believe that you'll go a lot further with people if you would avoid akyriarchical state of mind that you seem to be demonstrating on this mailinglist. How about addressing the important points at hand rather thannitpicking on items that are not of importance because this is the reasonwhy we cannot engage in proper, civil conversation.
Kevin Mitnick(May or may not be the Kevin you think I am)

________________________________Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:51:28 -0800From: rachelyra at gmail.comTo: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.orgSubject: Re: [hackerspaces] Hackers, feminism, and bullying
Hi kevin, I want to point out that I haven't said 'all', 'most', or 'many',or used judgemental adjectives like 'horrible', but simply describedpatterns of behavior that exist and sometimes occur, in the context ofdiscussion where they are relevant.It is difficult to even talk about gender/race/heteronormativity becauseas soon as it comes up, people from the named dominant group panic, getdefensive, scold the complainers, claim that they are beingreverse-discriminated.
This is akin to me saying that all feminists are "horrible individuals"and are "bullies" which is far from the truth. Your statement in my mindgives me the perception of you being a bully,...and now somehow we're talking about an exaggerated comparison and falsegeneralization you've made, and by extension you, and your feelings, insteadof continuing direct discussion of the topic at hand.Just pointing that out, in the hopes of illuminating yet another rotepattern of behavior as well as perhaps continuing to discuss (ordemonstrate, I guess) ways in which technology spaces can be unwelcoming tonew ideas while professing openmindedness.Now all these words are getting to be too much for my little old brain. Iguess I'll go back to my sewing.R.
_______________________________________________ Discuss mailing listDiscuss at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_______________________________________________Discuss mailing listDiscuss at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________Discuss mailing listDiscuss at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_______________________________________________Discuss mailing listDiscuss at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
                  
                  
                  
                  
                
                    

                
            
                 
                 
                 
                 
                
                 
                
                    

                
            
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/attachments/20130118/452ed40d/attachment.html>