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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Al,<div><br></div><div>How do you know that I am not female? Or not of a minority?</div><div><br></div><div>Requesting civility and being coherent does not mean that I am trying to suggest that you do not speak at all. On the contrary, it's better to discuss the whole matter rather than focus on certain lines and cry afoul when the overall message hasn't been altered.</div><div><br></div><div>If you were standing in my way, should I then tell you to "get out of the way" or be polite and say "excuse me"? Let's have a discussion, not a short series of words from a website.</div><div><br>Kevin Mitnick<div>(May or may not be the Kevin you think I am)</div><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:29:00 -0800<br>From: albill@openbuddha.com<br>To: discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org<br>Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Hackers, feminism, and bullying<br><br>
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AKA "woman or other minority raises concern, dominant group responds with criticisms of how concern was stated rather than addressing concern."
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<div><div><br></div><div>-- </div><div>Al Billings</div><div>http://www.openbuddha.com</div><div>http://makehacklearn.org</div><div><br></div></div>
<p style="color:#A0A0A8">On Friday, January 18, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Al Billings wrote:</p>
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It has been linked to before, not that people bothered to read it.
</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument" target="_blank">http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument</a></div>
<div><div><br></div><div>-- </div><div>Al Billings</div><div><a href="http://www.openbuddha.com" target="_blank">http://www.openbuddha.com</a></div><div><a href="http://makehacklearn.org" target="_blank">http://makehacklearn.org</a></div><div><br></div></div>
<p style="color:#A0A0A8">On Friday, January 18, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:</p><blockquote><div>
<span><div><div><div>Al are you attempting to create new terms or is that like a thing somewhere?</div><div><br></div><div>On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Al Billings <<a href="mailto:albill@openbuddha.com">albill@openbuddha.com</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote><div><div>aka "Tone Policing"</div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Al Billings</div><div><a href="http://www.openbuddha.com" target="_blank">http://www.openbuddha.com</a></div><div><a href="http://makehacklearn.org" target="_blank">http://makehacklearn.org</a></div><div><br></div><div>On Friday, January 18, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Kevin Mitnick wrote:</div><div><br></div><div>Rachel,</div><div><br></div><div>I think that it is rather accusatory of you to think that I am generalizing</div><div>here. You selectively removed my statement that I may be wrong on my</div><div>judgement of your character. Here's the line in question in its entirety:</div><div><br></div><blockquote><div><div>Your statement in my mind gives me the perception of you being a bully,</div><div>but being that we're in a virtual space, the words you use may not</div><div>necessarily indicate that you're the person I think you might be.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You took offense to the use of "bully" and I don't blame you, but I think it</div><div>was rather ill-advised for you to remove the statement that my perception of</div><div>you may be wrong just like how your perception of me could be wrong too. I</div><div>have never met you and as a result do not have any prejudice towards you. I</div><div>think it's rather disingenuous of you to focus on this one particular line</div><div>and then not bother to work with the statements I made later on.</div><div><br></div><div>I believe that you'll go a lot further with people if you would avoid a</div><div>kyriarchical state of mind that you seem to be demonstrating on this mailing</div><div>list. How about addressing the important points at hand rather than</div><div>nitpicking on items that are not of importance because this is the reason</div><div>why we cannot engage in proper, civil conversation.</div><div><br></div><div>Kevin Mitnick</div><div>(May or may not be the Kevin you think I am)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>________________________________</div><div>Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:51:28 -0800</div><div>From: <a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a></div><div>To: <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a></div><div>Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Hackers, feminism, and bullying</div><div><br></div><div>Hi kevin, I want to point out that I haven't said 'all', 'most', or 'many',</div><div>or used judgemental adjectives like 'horrible', but simply described</div><div>patterns of behavior that exist and sometimes occur, in the context of</div><div>discussion where they are relevant.</div><blockquote><div><blockquote><div><div>It is difficult to even talk about gender/race/heteronormativity because</div><div>as soon as it comes up, people from the named dominant group panic, get</div><div>defensive, scold the complainers, claim that they are being</div><div>reverse-discriminated.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is akin to me saying that all feminists are "horrible individuals"</div><div>and are "bullies" which is far from the truth. Your statement in my mind</div><div>gives me the perception of you being a bully,</div></div></blockquote><div>...and now somehow we're talking about an exaggerated comparison and false</div><div>generalization you've made, and by extension you, and your feelings, instead</div><div>of continuing direct discussion of the topic at hand.</div><div>Just pointing that out, in the hopes of illuminating yet another rote</div><div>pattern of behavior as well as perhaps continuing to discuss (or</div><div>demonstrate, I guess) ways in which technology spaces can be unwelcoming to</div><div>new ideas while professing openmindedness.</div><div>Now all these words are getting to be too much for my little old brain. I</div><div>guess I'll go back to my sewing.</div><div>R.</div><div><br></div><div>_______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list</div><div><a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a></div><div><a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></div><div>_______________________________________________</div><div>Discuss mailing list</div><div><a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a></div><div><a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>_______________________________________________</div><div>Discuss mailing list</div><div><a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a></div><div><a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></div></div></blockquote><div>_______________________________________________</div><div>Discuss mailing list</div><div><a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a></div><div><a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></div></div></div></span>
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