[hackerspaces] Invitation (was Fwd: Re: Black Highlighter + Important PS)

Tue Jul 11 22:29:05 CEST 2017

The world is big.  Lots of people pulling a lot of directions.  You jump in
and it's like swimming in the ocean.  Strong currents will divert you.  But
you don't get anywhere without hopping in.  So seeing some of the currents
( all any of us are equipped to see ) shouldn't dissuade folks from wading
in.

You have a view of this big ocean of politics and other constraints.  Try
swimming in it.  See what happens to your view.

-Matt

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 4:26 PM, idnc_sk <idnc_sk at vpslab.org> wrote:

> One think I forgot to copy-paste
>
> You are just shitting all over that.  You've provided no better
> alternative.  That's not constructive.  It's just flame bait man.
>
> *I can't, If I could, I would not be here. Its saddens me, but I can't
> really*
> * offer a solution. I can only pinpoint a few basic tricks the power is
> using, *
> * some of the mistakes people are doing. Other than that, I'm stuck! and *
> * frustrated that people who actually could make a difference are getting
> manipulated*
> * by individuals like Cecilia.*
>
>
>
>
>
> *On 07/11/2017 10:21 PM, idnc_sk wrote: *
>
> Well,
>
> history is a difficult subject on it's own, I'd rather not make it
> a few orders of magnitude more difficult by letting ourselves drift
> into parallel universes / would-be timelines. I'm also not qualified
> to go in-depth in such a discussion, so lets keep it as high level as
> possible.
>
> First, let me point out how far we are getting from my original remark
> to Cecilia, nevertheless, I'm actually looking forward to write this
> reply.
>
> Before I'll do that *in-line*,
>
> 3 of the most profitable lies of our age are organized religion, our
> history, and as of today, the most successful enslavement regime ever
> in existence disquised under the term "democracy".
>
>
> The real turning-points / milestones in our history are never taught
> in schools*
>
> Now, with that out of the way ..
>
>
> On 07/11/2017 06:48 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:
>
> I think you should stay out of south american politics.  And I'm not
> intending to invoke monroe doctrine.  I used to live there, and I stay out
> of it.  It's not my place to involve myself in the complexities there.  I
> can reasonably say this though... there were no good guys in any of the
> situations you are referring to.
>
>
> *#1** Be stationed in a country != living in a country*
>
> *#2 **@"there were no good guys"*
> *Keeping my proverbial distance from that machiavellianistic swamp *
> *called realpolitik, there are **no** hollywood-like good guys(well,
> there *
> *are** but they don't stick around for long so to speak). Everything *
> *boils down to interests***, and(for the point I'll try to make) how much *
> *breadcrumbs people at the bottom get while that interest is being *
> *attained. Pointing out how BRUTAL the US has been in maintaining its *
> *interests would unavoidably lead to the soviet paper tiger, which would *
> *probably evolve into a disc. about it's todays replacement - china. *
> *All of which are complicated matters on their own but don't worry, I'll *
> * wrap it up somehow ;)*
>
> You want to cast some huge swathe of horribleness on US external
> influence... fine... we've gone done stuck our proverbial dick in the
> mashed potatoes plenty of times.
>
> -
>
> But your country would still be a soviet satellite state without us,
>
> *#3 **Well, by this logic, if you'd staid out of WW1, we'd probably be *
> * united states of austria-hungary and had a more even, decentralized *
>
> * world. Probably the single reason why that old militaristic wreck of a
> monarch *
> *Franc Jozef got manipulated into letting Franc Ferdinand get killed *
> *was that FF was a huge admirer of USA. FF wanted to use *your* model **to
> solve hungarys decades-long nationalistic struggles(in which our *
>
> * nation played a small part in too) - instead of brute force. The
> _central_ role of UK in facilitating both world wars is *
> *something you never read about (well, Tragedy & Hope is one of the *
> *books where you can get a feel, but it was made unreadable for most). *
>
> *We could get even further - healthcare, social welfare and
> industrialization of africa - all hampered by the US(not only, looking at
> you Belgium, France), but it's more important to get *
>
> *the account of our real history corrected before making statements like
> yours above. *
>
> and as far as international active involvement goes historically... the US
> has been the nicest super power to ever exist in global history.
>
> *#4 OK, the fact that you cared enough to remember this particular
> intellectual*
> * crutch/piece of propaganda, albeit being a very shallow one, gives at
> least*
> * some hope that I'm not replying to a militant psychopath. Power was
> never*
>
> * this centralized, thats the single biggest problem of our world today.
> UK and later **the US played a major role in it(you were the "muscle"
> doing the dirty work), *
> * so did ur globalised financial system. Everything you might have seen in
> your *
> * movies is a lie, you have been tricked. You are being tricked, never
> ever*
> * join the army.*
>
> So sure, we've fucked up.  And continue to.  But so far we're doing better
> than anyone else yet.
>
> *#5 Did a roadtrip across the states couple of years ago, are you _sure_
> this is *
> * still true? Your country was hijacked, you are being steered into the
> abyss, *
> * a new replacement is almost ready.*
>
> Feel free to hop in and do better.  Or feel free to sit on the sidelines.
> We are international and national fuckups.  America was founded by fuckups,
> for fuckups.  We're proud of our fuckup heritage.  We're the bastard
> children of every other country.  But that said... we are doing better than
> others.  You want to lead... lead.  You don't want to.. then follow or get
> out of the way.
>
>
> *#6 There is so much historical details missing that would change your
> viewpoint(s), that it does** not even make sense to start addressing this
> point*
>
> I am down with people calling out the US for it's mistakes.  It's a
> fundamental tenant of a free society.  Enshrined in the magna carta.  But,
> if you want to just say shit could be better... well that's not
> constructive.  Go make it better.  Cecilia is trying to make shit better.
>
> *#7 **No, she might be thinking that she does*
>
>   You are just shitting all over that.  You've provided no better
> alternative.  That's not constructive.  It's just flame bait man.
> You have some solid concerns... but I don't see you following them up with
> a solution.  And frankly... at some level, all activism requires an above
> board legal frameworked interaction with the world... otherwise they end up
> like the palestinian liberation movement, trapped by their own extremists
> incapable of any meaningful traction, forever the victim of a nation with a
> better political and public outreach.
>
> *#8 **This is a slippery slope, a land mine, some of your presumptions
> are incorrect*
> * but I won't go there, sry.*
>
> Sure sometimes they need their own backchannels and clandestine
> components.  But they need the above board shit just as badly.
>
> Change is dangerous.  Always has been.  Always will be.  But our little
> nation of fuckups have proven that fucking up is definitely better than
> hoping shit gets better and not fucking up.
>
> *#9 Whatever you might be thinking of me or my opinions, we are sitting in
> the same*
> * boat, except with different propaganda bubbles build around us. *
>
> * Had to truncate the email because of *
>
>
> *"Message body is too big: 56391 bytes with a limit of 40 KB" *
>
>
> -Matt
>
> fuckups for the win.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 12:16 PM, idnc_sk <idnc_sk at vpslab.org> wrote:
>
>> :)
>>
>> I'd like to point that it was the US military who actively removed almost
>> every single
>> democratically elected leader in south america, africa and partly in asia
>> whenever their
>> pro-people "ideology" interfered with corporate interests. Not "US"
>> interests, not with
>> the interests of "US" citizens, with corporate interests.
>>
>> [Harold Pinter on US foreign policy]
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flvLfSSR1d4
>>
>> On 07/11/2017 06:09 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to point out it was the US military that basically built the
>> internet.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:29 AM, idnc_sk <idnc_sk at vpslab.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I would definitely dial that enthusiasm down a little. Anyone who cared
>>> to check
>>> knows how important of a role Stanford plays as an arm of the military
>>> industrial
>>> complex. Regardless of how many "transformations" LTT (claims to have)
>>> underwent,
>>> we are not living in some fairyland! Love and music are both great, I do
>>> enjoy
>>> SF "yt" lectures, nevertheless there is no room for naivety, no time to
>>> waste
>>> on projects / initiatives steered to lead  nowhere. Without going into
>>> details,
>>> pleas please please don't be this naive, you are actually harming
>>> people. Let me put
>>> it clearly, people might *die* because of such naivety. How many
>>> activists/reporters/
>>> whistle-blowers died because of people like you? How many hundreds if
>>> not thousands
>>> fell victim to wikileaks and all the "good" people knowingly or
>>> unknowingly propagating
>>> their carefully constructed image? Do you _know_ who the people in that
>>> org are?
>>>
>>> No, you don't
>>>
>>> Please, don't harm people
>>>
>>>
>>> <3 <3 <3
>>>
>>> idnc_sk
>>>
>>>
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