[hackerspaces] Discuss Digest, Vol 78, Issue 55
Rachel Uwa
info at schoolofma.org
Thu Feb 26 01:20:17 CET 2015
Hooray for Jessica Ross, voice of reason!
Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been very
droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to step in.
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 1:15 AM, <discuss-request at lists.hackerspaces.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary
> General Meetings. (Jessica Ross)
> 2. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary
> General Meetings. (Casey Callendrello)
> 3. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary
> General Meetings. (peter)
> 4. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary
> General Meetings. (peter)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:01:24 -0600
> From: Jessica Ross <jessica.r.ross at gmail.com>
> To: Hackerspaces General Discussion List
> <discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org>
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.
> Extraordinary General Meetings.
> Message-ID:
> <
> CA+zc98RYXVCKpMciKPdTVZ0J7K+PTpfOS9ZGS+mfqiV_yv-AbQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been very
> droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to step in.
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:59 PM, peter <phm at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 25/02/15 23:54, Derek H wrote:
> >
> > "If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might guess where
> > I'm going (there are clues)."
> >
> > Yeah. We get it. You're insufferable and lack any degree of properly
> > formed human empathy. You're incredibly emotionally unaware and insist on
> > inflicting yourself upon situations where your presence is unwelcome.
> > NOTHING bad that happens to you is your fault, and everyone is just out
> to
> > get you because they're so unenlightened. You're so advanced that you
> don't
> > even understand the concept of gender. Ooh. Ahh. Now please leave us be.
> >
> >
> > 'We'. 'us'. Who are you talking about?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:48 PM, peter <phm at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 25/02/15 23:34, Don Ankney wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Feb 25, 2015, at 9:51 AM, peter <phm at riseup.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 23/02/15 05:08, Sparr wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 2:56 PM, peter <phm at riseup.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Does anyone have advice/experience with the leadership abusing their
> >>> powers, doing unconstitutional/unethical things?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Short answer: unless the group's bylaws give you some recourse, then you
> >> have none. The leadership gets to make up the rules, and if you don't
> like
> >> them then you can go start your own club. The actual points of your
> >> arguments don't matter. They could be telling you to stop wearing yellow
> >> shirts, and your justification for wearing yellow shirts WOULDNT MATTER.
> >>
> >>
> >> I beg to differ. I don't care what the 'law' says. I care about what is
> >> the right/moral thing to do.
> >>
> >> (there is no appeal process, but I can try to call an EGM, which is what
> >> I'm doing)
> >>
> >> If your government starts committing genocide, would you say 'oh well,
> >> they passed a law to make it legal, so there is nothing I can do?'.
> >>
> >>
> >> Off you should choose that example.The prelude to genocide is almost
> >> always dehumanizing the targets.
> >>
> >>
> >> I was actually transhumanising, but I don't have time to explain this
> >> right now.
> >> If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might guess where
> >> I'm going (there are clues).
> >>
> >> I'm writing a reply for the LHS cleaner thread, cos I think it's very
> >> interesting.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Discuss mailing listDiscuss at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://
> lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Discuss mailing list
> >> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> >> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing listDiscuss at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://
> lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing list
> > Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:03:18 -0800
> From: Casey Callendrello <c1 at caseyc.net>
> To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.
> Extraordinary General Meetings.
> Message-ID: <54EE62C6.1030301 at caseyc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> On 2/25/15 4:01 PM, Jessica Ross wrote:
> > Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been
> > very droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to
> > step in.
> >
> Noisebridge-discuss has been really calm lately, so I was wondering
> where all the crazy went.
>
> Found it!
> <3 you all,
> -c
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 00:11:47 +0000
> From: peter <phm at riseup.net>
> To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.
> Extraordinary General Meetings.
> Message-ID: <54EE64C3.1070602 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>
> On 25/02/15 19:16, Dan Schmidt wrote:
> >> Please explain to me why it was hard for them to ignore. It seems very
> >> simple to me. Just don't read or reply.
> > To decide if something was worth reading you have to read it first. Duh.
> If you start a conversation about one thing and then derail it and turn it
> into something else how do others know when it's back on topic? They have
> to read it. Really, you're a lot nosier/disruptive than you realise.
> >
>
> wow. You must do a lot of reading.
>
>
> >> Please explain how my posts were threatening. Was there some suggestion
> >> that I was going to hurt the cleaner?
> > Dehumanising *anyone* is hurtful. Duh.
>
> hmmmmm. So why do you think I was doing it? To be mean?
>
>
> >> Does that sound like someone that's threatening cleaners?
> > You flip flop so much it's hard to predict what you're going to do next.
> Unpredictability can also seem threatening. Besides - you called your own
> behaviour dehumanising, I'm merely pointing out that's a Bad Thing(tm).
> Regardless, this is irrelevant. This is the real issue:
>
> What do you think I 'flip floped' on? Examples, please.
>
> "Unpredictability can also seem threatening."
>
> Wow. Now this is interesting. Can saying super smart things also seem
> threatening? I guess so. hmmmmmm. I just realized something!
>
> >> Social conventions are often bad.
> >> Challenging what is 'normal' is a good thing.
> > And that's the crux of the problem. Makers use hackerspaces to join
> forces to create things(objects, software, et al). They rely on social
> convention in order to cooperate and pool resources. Cooperation and
> compromise are core values of any hackerspace. You need a basic, stable
> protocol for communication in order to collectively achieve any greater
> objective. If you're only there to tear down their social conventions and
> not to make/hack then it's the wrong organisation for you. That's like
> walking in and dismantling the space's 3D printer because you think you can
> do it better. They're using the 3D printer and don't want you to dismantle
> it. If you had simply invited members to participate in a separate
> discussion about building a 3D printer (or challenging social conventions)
> in the privacy of a separate topic, IRC channel, whatever things may have
> turned out differently.
> >
> > I suggest you go start your own group to challenge social conventions
> and leave the makers to their making. They banned you.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:13:10 +0000
> >> From: phm at riseup.net
> >> To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> >> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.
> >> Extraordinary General Meetings.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 25/02/15 10:48, Dan Schmidt wrote:
> >>
> >> However, a pub table is a bad analogy for a mailing list. On a list, you
> >> can choose to ignore posts or whole threads, and it doesn't prevent you
> >> from continuing to participate in the other threads at the same time.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Obviously you made it hard for them to ignore you, so they kicked you
> out. Usually posts and threads which come across as threatening to other
> members or staff are the ones which cannot be ignored, especially by
> management. One might argue that dehumanising the cleaner is threatening
> behaviour. And, I might add, you're the one who called your behaviour
> dehumanising:
> >>
> >> Please explain to me why it was hard for them to ignore. It seems very
> >> simple to me. Just don't read or reply.
> >>
> >> Please explain how my posts were threatening. Was there some suggestion
> >> that I was going to hurt the cleaner?
> >>
> >> Why do you think I said in that thread:
> >>
> >> " Why do you think I clean the space and empty the bins?
> >> Cleaning the space is heroic and totally awesome"
> >>
> >>
> >> Does that sound like someone that's threatening cleaners?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "I like de-humanising. I think it's a good thing."
> >>
> >> If you habitually and wilfully break from social convention in a social
> conversation (especially online forums) then you run the risk of presenting
> yourself as a threat to the fabric that keeps the group together and
> functioning. There are ways of doing that which are perfectly respectable
> and civil, as I said, an intellectual exercise presented in a theoretical
> discussion. Non-threatening == easy to ignore, it's human nature.
> >>
> >>
> >> Social conventions are often bad.
> >>
> >> I think playing with ideas is good and healthy.
> >>
> >> Challenging what is 'normal' is a good thing. Some things are
> >> convention for good reasons, and some are conventions for bad reasons.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> London hackspace has a lot of members, and I know for a fact that some
> >> of them do like my contributions.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> They think cos they're not active on IRC or list that they don't exist.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If they do exist why don't you arrange your EGM instead of spending
> your time here trying to rally more supporters?
> >>
> >> - Dan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list
> >> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> >> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing list
> > Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 00:14:57 +0000
> From: peter <phm at riseup.net>
> To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.
> Extraordinary General Meetings.
> Message-ID: <54EE6581.9080602 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>
>
> On 26/02/15 00:01, Jessica Ross wrote:
> > Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been
> > very droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to
> > step in.
> >
>
> Or you could just choose not to read this thread. *shrug*
>
> Why do you think we need a moderator to come along and decide what
> everyone should read or post about?
>
> Has there been anything abusive in this thread?
>
>
> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:59 PM, peter <phm at riseup.net
> > <mailto:phm at riseup.net>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 25/02/15 23:54, Derek H wrote:
> >> "If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might
> >> guess where I'm going (there are clues)."
> >>
> >> Yeah. We get it. You're insufferable and lack any degree of
> >> properly formed human empathy. You're incredibly emotionally
> >> unaware and insist on inflicting yourself upon situations where
> >> your presence is unwelcome. NOTHING bad that happens to you is
> >> your fault, and everyone is just out to get you because they're
> >> so unenlightened. You're so advanced that you don't even
> >> understand the concept of gender. Ooh. Ahh. Now please leave us be.
> >>
> >
> > 'We'. 'us'. Who are you talking about?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:48 PM, peter <phm at riseup.net
> >> <mailto:phm at riseup.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 25/02/15 23:34, Don Ankney wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 9:51 AM, peter <phm at riseup.net
> >>> <mailto:phm at riseup.net>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 23/02/15 05:08, Sparr wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 2:56 PM, peter <phm at riseup.net
> >>>>> <mailto:phm at riseup.net>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Does anyone have advice/experience with the leadership
> >>>>> abusing their powers, doing unconstitutional/unethical
> >>>>> things?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Short answer: unless the group's bylaws give you some
> >>>>> recourse, then you have none. The leadership gets to make
> >>>>> up the rules, and if you don't like them then you can go
> >>>>> start your own club. The actual points of your arguments
> >>>>> don't matter. They could be telling you to stop wearing
> >>>>> yellow shirts, and your justification for wearing yellow
> >>>>> shirts WOULDNT MATTER.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I beg to differ. I don't care what the 'law' says. I care
> >>>> about what is the right/moral thing to do.
> >>>>
> >>>> (there is no appeal process, but I can try to call an EGM,
> >>>> which is what I'm doing)
> >>>>
> >>>> If your government starts committing genocide, would you
> >>>> say 'oh well, they passed a law to make it legal, so there
> >>>> is nothing I can do?'.
> >>>
> >>> Off you should choose that example.The prelude to genocide
> >>> is almost always dehumanizing the targets.
> >>
> >> I was actually transhumanising, but I don't have time to
> >> explain this right now.
> >> If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might
> >> guess where I'm going (there are clues).
> >>
> >> I'm writing a reply for the LHS cleaner thread, cos I think
> >> it's very interesting.
> >>
>
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> End of Discuss Digest, Vol 78, Issue 55
> ***************************************
>
--
*School of Machines, Making & Make-Believe*
http://schoolofma.org/
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