<div dir="ltr">Hooray for Jessica Ross, voice of reason!<div><br><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been very</span><br style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to step in.</span><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 1:15 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:discuss-request@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">discuss-request@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Discuss mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary<br>
General Meetings. (Jessica Ross)<br>
2. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary<br>
General Meetings. (Casey Callendrello)<br>
3. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary<br>
General Meetings. (peter)<br>
4. Re: Leadership abusing powers. Bullying. Extraordinary<br>
General Meetings. (peter)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:01:24 -0600<br>
From: Jessica Ross <<a href="mailto:jessica.r.ross@gmail.com">jessica.r.ross@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Hackerspaces General Discussion List<br>
<<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.<br>
Extraordinary General Meetings.<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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<br>
Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been very<br>
droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to step in.<br>
<br>
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:59 PM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
> On 25/02/15 23:54, Derek H wrote:<br>
><br>
> "If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might guess where<br>
> I'm going (there are clues)."<br>
><br>
> Yeah. We get it. You're insufferable and lack any degree of properly<br>
> formed human empathy. You're incredibly emotionally unaware and insist on<br>
> inflicting yourself upon situations where your presence is unwelcome.<br>
> NOTHING bad that happens to you is your fault, and everyone is just out to<br>
> get you because they're so unenlightened. You're so advanced that you don't<br>
> even understand the concept of gender. Ooh. Ahh. Now please leave us be.<br>
><br>
><br>
> 'We'. 'us'. Who are you talking about?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:48 PM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> On 25/02/15 23:34, Don Ankney wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 9:51 AM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 23/02/15 05:08, Sparr wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 2:56 PM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Does anyone have advice/experience with the leadership abusing their<br>
>>> powers, doing unconstitutional/unethical things?<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> Short answer: unless the group's bylaws give you some recourse, then you<br>
>> have none. The leadership gets to make up the rules, and if you don't like<br>
>> them then you can go start your own club. The actual points of your<br>
>> arguments don't matter. They could be telling you to stop wearing yellow<br>
>> shirts, and your justification for wearing yellow shirts WOULDNT MATTER.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I beg to differ. I don't care what the 'law' says. I care about what is<br>
>> the right/moral thing to do.<br>
>><br>
>> (there is no appeal process, but I can try to call an EGM, which is what<br>
>> I'm doing)<br>
>><br>
>> If your government starts committing genocide, would you say 'oh well,<br>
>> they passed a law to make it legal, so there is nothing I can do?'.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Off you should choose that example.The prelude to genocide is almost<br>
>> always dehumanizing the targets.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I was actually transhumanising, but I don't have time to explain this<br>
>> right now.<br>
>> If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might guess where<br>
>> I'm going (there are clues).<br>
>><br>
>> I'm writing a reply for the LHS cleaner thread, cos I think it's very<br>
>> interesting.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Discuss mailing listDiscuss@lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing listDiscuss@lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
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><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:03:18 -0800<br>
From: Casey Callendrello <<a href="mailto:c1@caseyc.net">c1@caseyc.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.<br>
Extraordinary General Meetings.<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:54EE62C6.1030301@caseyc.net">54EE62C6.1030301@caseyc.net</a>><br>
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<br>
On 2/25/15 4:01 PM, Jessica Ross wrote:<br>
> Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been<br>
> very droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to<br>
> step in.<br>
><br>
Noisebridge-discuss has been really calm lately, so I was wondering<br>
where all the crazy went.<br>
<br>
Found it!<br>
<3 you all,<br>
-c<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 00:11:47 +0000<br>
From: peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.<br>
Extraordinary General Meetings.<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:54EE64C3.1070602@riseup.net">54EE64C3.1070602@riseup.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed<br>
<br>
<br>
On 25/02/15 19:16, Dan Schmidt wrote:<br>
>> Please explain to me why it was hard for them to ignore. It seems very<br>
>> simple to me. Just don't read or reply.<br>
> To decide if something was worth reading you have to read it first. Duh. If you start a conversation about one thing and then derail it and turn it into something else how do others know when it's back on topic? They have to read it. Really, you're a lot nosier/disruptive than you realise.<br>
><br>
<br>
wow. You must do a lot of reading.<br>
<br>
<br>
>> Please explain how my posts were threatening. Was there some suggestion<br>
>> that I was going to hurt the cleaner?<br>
> Dehumanising *anyone* is hurtful. Duh.<br>
<br>
hmmmmm. So why do you think I was doing it? To be mean?<br>
<br>
<br>
>> Does that sound like someone that's threatening cleaners?<br>
> You flip flop so much it's hard to predict what you're going to do next. Unpredictability can also seem threatening. Besides - you called your own behaviour dehumanising, I'm merely pointing out that's a Bad Thing(tm). Regardless, this is irrelevant. This is the real issue:<br>
<br>
What do you think I 'flip floped' on? Examples, please.<br>
<br>
"Unpredictability can also seem threatening."<br>
<br>
Wow. Now this is interesting. Can saying super smart things also seem<br>
threatening? I guess so. hmmmmmm. I just realized something!<br>
<br>
>> Social conventions are often bad.<br>
>> Challenging what is 'normal' is a good thing.<br>
> And that's the crux of the problem. Makers use hackerspaces to join forces to create things(objects, software, et al). They rely on social convention in order to cooperate and pool resources. Cooperation and compromise are core values of any hackerspace. You need a basic, stable protocol for communication in order to collectively achieve any greater objective. If you're only there to tear down their social conventions and not to make/hack then it's the wrong organisation for you. That's like walking in and dismantling the space's 3D printer because you think you can do it better. They're using the 3D printer and don't want you to dismantle it. If you had simply invited members to participate in a separate discussion about building a 3D printer (or challenging social conventions) in the privacy of a separate topic, IRC channel, whatever things may have turned out differently.<br>
><br>
> I suggest you go start your own group to challenge social conventions and leave the makers to their making. They banned you.<br>
><br>
><br>
> ________________________________<br>
>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:13:10 +0000<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a><br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.<br>
>> Extraordinary General Meetings.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 25/02/15 10:48, Dan Schmidt wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> However, a pub table is a bad analogy for a mailing list. On a list, you<br>
>> can choose to ignore posts or whole threads, and it doesn't prevent you<br>
>> from continuing to participate in the other threads at the same time.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Obviously you made it hard for them to ignore you, so they kicked you out. Usually posts and threads which come across as threatening to other members or staff are the ones which cannot be ignored, especially by management. One might argue that dehumanising the cleaner is threatening behaviour. And, I might add, you're the one who called your behaviour dehumanising:<br>
>><br>
>> Please explain to me why it was hard for them to ignore. It seems very<br>
>> simple to me. Just don't read or reply.<br>
>><br>
>> Please explain how my posts were threatening. Was there some suggestion<br>
>> that I was going to hurt the cleaner?<br>
>><br>
>> Why do you think I said in that thread:<br>
>><br>
>> " Why do you think I clean the space and empty the bins?<br>
>> Cleaning the space is heroic and totally awesome"<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Does that sound like someone that's threatening cleaners?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> "I like de-humanising. I think it's a good thing."<br>
>><br>
>> If you habitually and wilfully break from social convention in a social conversation (especially online forums) then you run the risk of presenting yourself as a threat to the fabric that keeps the group together and functioning. There are ways of doing that which are perfectly respectable and civil, as I said, an intellectual exercise presented in a theoretical discussion. Non-threatening == easy to ignore, it's human nature.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Social conventions are often bad.<br>
>><br>
>> I think playing with ideas is good and healthy.<br>
>><br>
>> Challenging what is 'normal' is a good thing. Some things are<br>
>> convention for good reasons, and some are conventions for bad reasons.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> London hackspace has a lot of members, and I know for a fact that some<br>
>> of them do like my contributions.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> They think cos they're not active on IRC or list that they don't exist.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> If they do exist why don't you arrange your EGM instead of spending your time here trying to rally more supporters?<br>
>><br>
>> - Dan<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 00:14:57 +0000<br>
From: peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Leadership abusing powers. Bullying.<br>
Extraordinary General Meetings.<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:54EE6581.9080602@riseup.net">54EE6581.9080602@riseup.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
<br>
On 26/02/15 00:01, Jessica Ross wrote:<br>
> Is this list becoming the new noisebridge-discuss? This has all been<br>
> very droll and everything, but I think it's time for a moderator to<br>
> step in.<br>
><br>
<br>
Or you could just choose not to read this thread. *shrug*<br>
<br>
Why do you think we need a moderator to come along and decide what<br>
everyone should read or post about?<br>
<br>
Has there been anything abusive in this thread?<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:59 PM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 25/02/15 23:54, Derek H wrote:<br>
>> "If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might<br>
>> guess where I'm going (there are clues)."<br>
>><br>
>> Yeah. We get it. You're insufferable and lack any degree of<br>
>> properly formed human empathy. You're incredibly emotionally<br>
>> unaware and insist on inflicting yourself upon situations where<br>
>> your presence is unwelcome. NOTHING bad that happens to you is<br>
>> your fault, and everyone is just out to get you because they're<br>
>> so unenlightened. You're so advanced that you don't even<br>
>> understand the concept of gender. Ooh. Ahh. Now please leave us be.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> 'We'. 'us'. Who are you talking about?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:48 PM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 25/02/15 23:34, Don Ankney wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 9:51 AM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a><br>
>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On 23/02/15 05:08, Sparr wrote:<br>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 2:56 PM, peter <<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a><br>
>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:phm@riseup.net">phm@riseup.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Does anyone have advice/experience with the leadership<br>
>>>>> abusing their powers, doing unconstitutional/unethical<br>
>>>>> things?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Short answer: unless the group's bylaws give you some<br>
>>>>> recourse, then you have none. The leadership gets to make<br>
>>>>> up the rules, and if you don't like them then you can go<br>
>>>>> start your own club. The actual points of your arguments<br>
>>>>> don't matter. They could be telling you to stop wearing<br>
>>>>> yellow shirts, and your justification for wearing yellow<br>
>>>>> shirts WOULDNT MATTER.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I beg to differ. I don't care what the 'law' says. I care<br>
>>>> about what is the right/moral thing to do.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> (there is no appeal process, but I can try to call an EGM,<br>
>>>> which is what I'm doing)<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> If your government starts committing genocide, would you<br>
>>>> say 'oh well, they passed a law to make it legal, so there<br>
>>>> is nothing I can do?'.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Off you should choose that example.The prelude to genocide<br>
>>> is almost always dehumanizing the targets.<br>
>><br>
>> I was actually transhumanising, but I don't have time to<br>
>> explain this right now.<br>
>> If you read the thread closely, and you're smart, you might<br>
>> guess where I'm going (there are clues).<br>
>><br>
>> I'm writing a reply for the LHS cleaner thread, cos I think<br>
>> it's very interesting.<br>
>><br>
<br>
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End of Discuss Digest, Vol 78, Issue 55<br>
***************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><div><font size="1"><b>School of Machines, Making & Make-Believe</b></font></div><div><font size="1"><a href="http://schoolofma.org/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://schoolofma.org/</a></font></div><div><br></div></div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><div></div></div></div></div>
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