[hackerspaces] Help me make it happen for 'hackert0wn' on Indiegogo

Wed Oct 3 21:01:17 CEST 2012

I would personally love to throw my two cents into helping flesh out this
project and improve the cost/construction/revenue model. Assuming, of
course, that the designers are open to feedback.

Steven
On Oct 3, 2012 2:53 PM, "Nils Hitze" <nhitze at gmail.com> wrote:

> What Matt said.
>
> Let them put the Scribbles into a GDoc/Etherpad and they should share it
> with this list so we can add Information/Comments and stuff.
>
> Reminds me a bit off the Holons in Freedom (TM) / Suarez
>
> Kind Regards
> Nils
>
> 2012/10/3 Matt Joyce <matt at nycresistor.com>
>
>> I hate to sound like a negative nancy.
>>
>> But...
>>
>> This project isn't planned out at all.  And the goals are far wider
>> reaching than is possible with only 1.5 million.
>>
>> Also having worked with containers before I can tell you a couple of
>> things.
>>
>> 1.  They need to be refitted for people to be allowed to occupy them.
>> a.  That means stripped, repainted, resealed, etc.
>> b.  They need fire suppression systems installed.
>> c.  They need air conditioning.
>>
>> 2.  Containers are intended to be used INDOORS.  You put a container
>> outside in NYC and it will flood.  Either from above or below.  Either
>> way it's a safety hazard and it'll likely ruin your day and a lot of
>> equipment.  Potentially get someone killed if they don't take care to
>> avoid stray voltage.  This isn't idle speculation.  I've worked with
>> outdoor DC containers.  They need to be covered and raised off the
>> ground.  That's all there is to it.
>>
>> So the idea of picking up a container and dropping it down and putting
>> people in it... is very expensive.  Also it requires a roof and a
>> floor.  Which is also very expensive.
>>
>> I doubt with 1.5 million just the bare essentials of a roof / floor /
>> and four equipped containers could be accomplished.
>>
>> Heck maybe it's possible but, it seems like no one involved with this
>> project has even done a legitimate cost break down.  Or developed a
>> sustainability model as discussed previously.  Or identified areas of
>> risk.
>>
>> More worrisome is the wild bike shedding in the plan.  Discussing
>> shops?  CNC / Milling?  Datacenters?
>>
>> Does the site even have access to the electrical base necessary to
>> support any of that?
>>
>> Has anyone even gotten a quote on what the industrial rates will be in
>> that area?
>>
>> What about it's location in relation to schools / homes?  What's the
>> land currently zoned for?
>>
>> Is there going to be an engineers inspection?  is that in the cost
>> break down?  legal fees?  accounting?  incorporation?
>>
>> This looks like something someone scribbled on the back of a napkin in
>> a bar and then attached stock photos to.
>>
>> I got all the respect in the world for people putting their ideas out
>> there and trying to pick up some support, but I have seen a lot of
>> kickstarters end up with a persons reputation ruined and a bunch of
>> money donated by good people burned along with it.  The people who
>> posted this might want to take a moment to sit down and consider the
>> consequences of getting funded and then not being able to deliver on
>> their promises.
>>
>> Seriously, if anyone on the list knows these guys you might want to
>> tell them it MIGHT be a good idea to take down that project page.  Put
>> some real thought into what this project entails.  Cut the scope down
>> to something they can achieve.  Provide a real well researched budget.
>>  A realistic timeline.  A risk assessment.  And then when they are
>> confident this isn't just a pipe dream.  They can post a project that
>> they can be confident that they can deliver on.  One with clear
>> evidence of their real desire to actually break down the project and
>> accomplish it piece meal.
>>
>> This stuff isn't just about my concern they'll blow 1.5 million of
>> other folks hard earned money.  A high profile project like this is a
>> hugely stressful deal.  If these guys bite off more than they can
>> chew, they can end up in a very bad way personally.  This is the sort
>> of project that can ruin someone's life if it goes south.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Mitch Altman <maltman23 at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Definitely not a scam.  Definitely super ambitious.  Can they pull it
>> off?  I'd love to find out.  PsyTek and others involved are totally sincere
>> in wanting to make this to happen.  I've been to the site with them -- an
>> old triangular-shaped parking lot.  When I was at AlphaOne Labs this
>> summer, PsyTek had already been working on plans for quite awhile to turn
>> that triangle into the vision given in the video.  He's put a lot of time
>> and thought into it.  If you want details, contact him.
>> >
>> > Mitch.
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> >> From: wsaturno at gmail.com
>> >> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 13:12:23 -0400
>> >> To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Help me make it happen for 'hackert0wn' on
>> >> Indiegogo
>> >>
>> >> I know these guys and it is a real (albeit ambitious!) idea.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Aurélien
>> >> <aurelien at cwb.io<mailto:aurelien at cwb.io>> wrote:
>> >> Steven Sutton <ssutton4455 at gmail.com<mailto:ssutton4455 at gmail.com>>
>> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > I don't think it's a scam, just an ambitious portfolio of projects.
>> >> > However, I can see where Matt came go that conclusion because of the
>> >> > lack of Return on Investment data for each of the sub-projects.
>> >> >
>> >> > For example, small-scale testing and yield rates for aquaponics are
>> >> > available from various labs. If crops are grown to be sold, then an
>> >> > optimistic, pessimistic, and most likely revenue estimate can be
>> >> > created for a given square footage and used to project the amount of
>> >> > time that the investment will be paid off. The same for the retail
>> >> > location (where revenue per square foot data for similar retail
>> >> > businesses could be used as a benchmark).
>> >> >
>> >> > You don't have to get super technical, as that will turn some people
>> >> > off, but you have to also instill confidence in the worthiness of the
>> >> > investment and probable success of the project. Unless I see numbers,
>> >> > I have a really hard time imagining the cost justification for using
>> >> > hydrogen fuel cells in the initial build. Or the initial $150+ per
>> >> > square foot cost. Or the lack of maintenance costs and plans.
>> >> >
>> >> > If it were me, I would take a phased approach and demonstrate this on
>> >> > a small scale before going big with it. Looking over the data, I
>> think
>> >> > it's possible to get 80% of the features for 20% of the cost.
>> >> >
>> >> > It's a noble project, but the pitch is difficult to understand from a
>> >> > technical perspective. I think you need a better model of the project
>> >> > in order for it to go viral. It has to seem just within reach to get
>> >> > people excited. That means an achievable initial investment, very
>> >> > little waste (with each sub project justified), a cost-effective
>> >> > architecture, and a 10-20 year Return on Investment including the
>> >> > continuous costs to run the facility over that time period.
>> >> >
>> >> > If the facility were to be paid off by member dues alone, 12 months *
>> >> > 20 years = 240 dues payments, which requires 6000+ members to pay
>> off.
>> >> > Also troubling is the lack of information about continuous labor
>> >> > costs, licensing, inspection, impact fees, and contractor costs.
>> >> >
>> >> > So why is the pitch so vague?
>> >> >
>> >> > Steven
>> >> >
>> >> > On Oct 3, 2012 12:09 PM, "Matt Joyce"
>> >> <matt at nycresistor.com<mailto:matt at nycresistor.com>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Seems like a total scam. The cost estimates are nonsensical and
>> >> > there is practically zero detail on the project beyond those.
>> >> >
>> >> > Probably had to use indiegogo cause kickstarter would have shot
>> >> > the idea as proposed down.
>> >> >
>> >> > -matt
>> >> >
>> >> > On Oct 3, 2012 8:57 AM, "Psy Tek"
>> >> <psytek at alphaonelabs.com<mailto:psytek at alphaonelabs.com>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello,
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm writing to let you know about 'hackert0wn', a pioneering
>> >> > educational center for clean technology and sustainability
>> >> > featuring the world's first marketplace for hackers.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Take a moment to check it out on Indiegogo and also share it
>> >> > with your friends. All the tools are there. Get perks, make
>> >> > a contribution, or simply follow updates. If enough of us get
>> >> > behind it, we can make 'hackert0wn' happen.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.indiegogo.com/hackert0wn?a=1498290&i=emal
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Discuss mailing list
>> >> >
>> >> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org>
>> >> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Discuss mailing list
>> >> > Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >
>> >> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Discuss mailing list
>> >> > Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >
>> >> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >>
>> >> Hi hackers,
>> >>
>> >> Wow so they have a t0wn, mugs and much more things but no website?
>> >>
>> >> No webmaster in a hackertown -_-'
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Aurelien DESBRIERES
>> >> Ride Free! Ride GNU.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >>
>> >>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Nils Hitze
>
> Email: nhitze at gmail.com
> Mobil: +49 179 9429701
>
> Blog: silberkind.de <http://www.silberkind.de>
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> Twitter: @kojote <http://twitter.com/kojote>
>
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