[hackerspaces] Help me make it happen for 'hackert0wn' on Indiegogo

Wed Oct 3 20:53:20 CEST 2012

What Matt said.

Let them put the Scribbles into a GDoc/Etherpad and they should share it
with this list so we can add Information/Comments and stuff.

Reminds me a bit off the Holons in Freedom (TM) / Suarez

Kind Regards
Nils

2012/10/3 Matt Joyce <matt at nycresistor.com>

> I hate to sound like a negative nancy.
>
> But...
>
> This project isn't planned out at all.  And the goals are far wider
> reaching than is possible with only 1.5 million.
>
> Also having worked with containers before I can tell you a couple of
> things.
>
> 1.  They need to be refitted for people to be allowed to occupy them.
> a.  That means stripped, repainted, resealed, etc.
> b.  They need fire suppression systems installed.
> c.  They need air conditioning.
>
> 2.  Containers are intended to be used INDOORS.  You put a container
> outside in NYC and it will flood.  Either from above or below.  Either
> way it's a safety hazard and it'll likely ruin your day and a lot of
> equipment.  Potentially get someone killed if they don't take care to
> avoid stray voltage.  This isn't idle speculation.  I've worked with
> outdoor DC containers.  They need to be covered and raised off the
> ground.  That's all there is to it.
>
> So the idea of picking up a container and dropping it down and putting
> people in it... is very expensive.  Also it requires a roof and a
> floor.  Which is also very expensive.
>
> I doubt with 1.5 million just the bare essentials of a roof / floor /
> and four equipped containers could be accomplished.
>
> Heck maybe it's possible but, it seems like no one involved with this
> project has even done a legitimate cost break down.  Or developed a
> sustainability model as discussed previously.  Or identified areas of
> risk.
>
> More worrisome is the wild bike shedding in the plan.  Discussing
> shops?  CNC / Milling?  Datacenters?
>
> Does the site even have access to the electrical base necessary to
> support any of that?
>
> Has anyone even gotten a quote on what the industrial rates will be in
> that area?
>
> What about it's location in relation to schools / homes?  What's the
> land currently zoned for?
>
> Is there going to be an engineers inspection?  is that in the cost
> break down?  legal fees?  accounting?  incorporation?
>
> This looks like something someone scribbled on the back of a napkin in
> a bar and then attached stock photos to.
>
> I got all the respect in the world for people putting their ideas out
> there and trying to pick up some support, but I have seen a lot of
> kickstarters end up with a persons reputation ruined and a bunch of
> money donated by good people burned along with it.  The people who
> posted this might want to take a moment to sit down and consider the
> consequences of getting funded and then not being able to deliver on
> their promises.
>
> Seriously, if anyone on the list knows these guys you might want to
> tell them it MIGHT be a good idea to take down that project page.  Put
> some real thought into what this project entails.  Cut the scope down
> to something they can achieve.  Provide a real well researched budget.
>  A realistic timeline.  A risk assessment.  And then when they are
> confident this isn't just a pipe dream.  They can post a project that
> they can be confident that they can deliver on.  One with clear
> evidence of their real desire to actually break down the project and
> accomplish it piece meal.
>
> This stuff isn't just about my concern they'll blow 1.5 million of
> other folks hard earned money.  A high profile project like this is a
> hugely stressful deal.  If these guys bite off more than they can
> chew, they can end up in a very bad way personally.  This is the sort
> of project that can ruin someone's life if it goes south.
>
> -Matt
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Mitch Altman <maltman23 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Definitely not a scam.  Definitely super ambitious.  Can they pull it
> off?  I'd love to find out.  PsyTek and others involved are totally sincere
> in wanting to make this to happen.  I've been to the site with them -- an
> old triangular-shaped parking lot.  When I was at AlphaOne Labs this
> summer, PsyTek had already been working on plans for quite awhile to turn
> that triangle into the vision given in the video.  He's put a lot of time
> and thought into it.  If you want details, contact him.
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
> > ________________________________
> >> From: wsaturno at gmail.com
> >> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 13:12:23 -0400
> >> To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> >> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Help me make it happen for 'hackert0wn' on
> >> Indiegogo
> >>
> >> I know these guys and it is a real (albeit ambitious!) idea.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Aurélien
> >> <aurelien at cwb.io<mailto:aurelien at cwb.io>> wrote:
> >> Steven Sutton <ssutton4455 at gmail.com<mailto:ssutton4455 at gmail.com>>
> writes:
> >>
> >> > I don't think it's a scam, just an ambitious portfolio of projects.
> >> > However, I can see where Matt came go that conclusion because of the
> >> > lack of Return on Investment data for each of the sub-projects.
> >> >
> >> > For example, small-scale testing and yield rates for aquaponics are
> >> > available from various labs. If crops are grown to be sold, then an
> >> > optimistic, pessimistic, and most likely revenue estimate can be
> >> > created for a given square footage and used to project the amount of
> >> > time that the investment will be paid off. The same for the retail
> >> > location (where revenue per square foot data for similar retail
> >> > businesses could be used as a benchmark).
> >> >
> >> > You don't have to get super technical, as that will turn some people
> >> > off, but you have to also instill confidence in the worthiness of the
> >> > investment and probable success of the project. Unless I see numbers,
> >> > I have a really hard time imagining the cost justification for using
> >> > hydrogen fuel cells in the initial build. Or the initial $150+ per
> >> > square foot cost. Or the lack of maintenance costs and plans.
> >> >
> >> > If it were me, I would take a phased approach and demonstrate this on
> >> > a small scale before going big with it. Looking over the data, I think
> >> > it's possible to get 80% of the features for 20% of the cost.
> >> >
> >> > It's a noble project, but the pitch is difficult to understand from a
> >> > technical perspective. I think you need a better model of the project
> >> > in order for it to go viral. It has to seem just within reach to get
> >> > people excited. That means an achievable initial investment, very
> >> > little waste (with each sub project justified), a cost-effective
> >> > architecture, and a 10-20 year Return on Investment including the
> >> > continuous costs to run the facility over that time period.
> >> >
> >> > If the facility were to be paid off by member dues alone, 12 months *
> >> > 20 years = 240 dues payments, which requires 6000+ members to pay off.
> >> > Also troubling is the lack of information about continuous labor
> >> > costs, licensing, inspection, impact fees, and contractor costs.
> >> >
> >> > So why is the pitch so vague?
> >> >
> >> > Steven
> >> >
> >> > On Oct 3, 2012 12:09 PM, "Matt Joyce"
> >> <matt at nycresistor.com<mailto:matt at nycresistor.com>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Seems like a total scam. The cost estimates are nonsensical and
> >> > there is practically zero detail on the project beyond those.
> >> >
> >> > Probably had to use indiegogo cause kickstarter would have shot
> >> > the idea as proposed down.
> >> >
> >> > -matt
> >> >
> >> > On Oct 3, 2012 8:57 AM, "Psy Tek"
> >> <psytek at alphaonelabs.com<mailto:psytek at alphaonelabs.com>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hello,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I'm writing to let you know about 'hackert0wn', a pioneering
> >> > educational center for clean technology and sustainability
> >> > featuring the world's first marketplace for hackers.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Take a moment to check it out on Indiegogo and also share it
> >> > with your friends. All the tools are there. Get perks, make
> >> > a contribution, or simply follow updates. If enough of us get
> >> > behind it, we can make 'hackert0wn' happen.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > http://www.indiegogo.com/hackert0wn?a=1498290&i=emal
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Discuss mailing list
> >> >
> >> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org>
> >> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Discuss mailing list
> >> > Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org>
> >> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Discuss mailing list
> >> > Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org>
> >> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>
> >> Hi hackers,
> >>
> >> Wow so they have a t0wn, mugs and much more things but no website?
> >>
> >> No webmaster in a hackertown -_-'
> >>
> >> --
> >> Aurelien DESBRIERES
> >> Ride Free! Ride GNU.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Discuss mailing list
> >> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org>
> >> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list
> >> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> >> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing list
> > Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

-- 
Nils Hitze

Email: nhitze at gmail.com
Mobil: +49 179 9429701

Blog: silberkind.de <http://www.silberkind.de>
G+: silberkind.de/+
Twitter: @kojote <http://twitter.com/kojote>
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