<p dir="ltr">I would personally love to throw my two cents into helping flesh out this project and improve the cost/construction/revenue model. Assuming, of course, that the designers are open to feedback.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Steven</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 3, 2012 2:53 PM, "Nils Hitze" <<a href="mailto:nhitze@gmail.com">nhitze@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
What Matt said. <div><br>Let them put the Scribbles into a GDoc/Etherpad and they should share it with this list so we can add Information/Comments and stuff.</div><div><br></div><div>Reminds me a bit off the Holons in Freedom (TM) / Suarez</div>
<div><br></div><div>Kind Regards</div><div>Nils</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/10/3 Matt Joyce <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I hate to sound like a negative nancy.<br>
<br>
But...<br>
<br>
This project isn't planned out at all. And the goals are far wider<br>
reaching than is possible with only 1.5 million.<br>
<br>
Also having worked with containers before I can tell you a couple of things.<br>
<br>
1. They need to be refitted for people to be allowed to occupy them.<br>
a. That means stripped, repainted, resealed, etc.<br>
b. They need fire suppression systems installed.<br>
c. They need air conditioning.<br>
<br>
2. Containers are intended to be used INDOORS. You put a container<br>
outside in NYC and it will flood. Either from above or below. Either<br>
way it's a safety hazard and it'll likely ruin your day and a lot of<br>
equipment. Potentially get someone killed if they don't take care to<br>
avoid stray voltage. This isn't idle speculation. I've worked with<br>
outdoor DC containers. They need to be covered and raised off the<br>
ground. That's all there is to it.<br>
<br>
So the idea of picking up a container and dropping it down and putting<br>
people in it... is very expensive. Also it requires a roof and a<br>
floor. Which is also very expensive.<br>
<br>
I doubt with 1.5 million just the bare essentials of a roof / floor /<br>
and four equipped containers could be accomplished.<br>
<br>
Heck maybe it's possible but, it seems like no one involved with this<br>
project has even done a legitimate cost break down. Or developed a<br>
sustainability model as discussed previously. Or identified areas of<br>
risk.<br>
<br>
More worrisome is the wild bike shedding in the plan. Discussing<br>
shops? CNC / Milling? Datacenters?<br>
<br>
Does the site even have access to the electrical base necessary to<br>
support any of that?<br>
<br>
Has anyone even gotten a quote on what the industrial rates will be in<br>
that area?<br>
<br>
What about it's location in relation to schools / homes? What's the<br>
land currently zoned for?<br>
<br>
Is there going to be an engineers inspection? is that in the cost<br>
break down? legal fees? accounting? incorporation?<br>
<br>
This looks like something someone scribbled on the back of a napkin in<br>
a bar and then attached stock photos to.<br>
<br>
I got all the respect in the world for people putting their ideas out<br>
there and trying to pick up some support, but I have seen a lot of<br>
kickstarters end up with a persons reputation ruined and a bunch of<br>
money donated by good people burned along with it. The people who<br>
posted this might want to take a moment to sit down and consider the<br>
consequences of getting funded and then not being able to deliver on<br>
their promises.<br>
<br>
Seriously, if anyone on the list knows these guys you might want to<br>
tell them it MIGHT be a good idea to take down that project page. Put<br>
some real thought into what this project entails. Cut the scope down<br>
to something they can achieve. Provide a real well researched budget.<br>
A realistic timeline. A risk assessment. And then when they are<br>
confident this isn't just a pipe dream. They can post a project that<br>
they can be confident that they can deliver on. One with clear<br>
evidence of their real desire to actually break down the project and<br>
accomplish it piece meal.<br>
<br>
This stuff isn't just about my concern they'll blow 1.5 million of<br>
other folks hard earned money. A high profile project like this is a<br>
hugely stressful deal. If these guys bite off more than they can<br>
chew, they can end up in a very bad way personally. This is the sort<br>
of project that can ruin someone's life if it goes south.<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
-Matt<br>
</font></span><div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Mitch Altman <<a href="mailto:maltman23@hotmail.com" target="_blank">maltman23@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Definitely not a scam. Definitely super ambitious. Can they pull it off? I'd love to find out. PsyTek and others involved are totally sincere in wanting to make this to happen. I've been to the site with them -- an old triangular-shaped parking lot. When I was at AlphaOne Labs this summer, PsyTek had already been working on plans for quite awhile to turn that triangle into the vision given in the video. He's put a lot of time and thought into it. If you want details, contact him.<br>
><br>
> Mitch.<br>
><br>
> ________________________________<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:wsaturno@gmail.com" target="_blank">wsaturno@gmail.com</a><br>
>> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 13:12:23 -0400<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Help me make it happen for 'hackert0wn' on<br>
>> Indiegogo<br>
>><br>
>> I know these guys and it is a real (albeit ambitious!) idea.<br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Aurélien<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:aurelien@cwb.io" target="_blank">aurelien@cwb.io</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:aurelien@cwb.io" target="_blank">aurelien@cwb.io</a>>> wrote:<br>
>> Steven Sutton <<a href="mailto:ssutton4455@gmail.com" target="_blank">ssutton4455@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:ssutton4455@gmail.com" target="_blank">ssutton4455@gmail.com</a>>> writes:<br>
>><br>
>> > I don't think it's a scam, just an ambitious portfolio of projects.<br>
>> > However, I can see where Matt came go that conclusion because of the<br>
>> > lack of Return on Investment data for each of the sub-projects.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > For example, small-scale testing and yield rates for aquaponics are<br>
>> > available from various labs. If crops are grown to be sold, then an<br>
>> > optimistic, pessimistic, and most likely revenue estimate can be<br>
>> > created for a given square footage and used to project the amount of<br>
>> > time that the investment will be paid off. The same for the retail<br>
>> > location (where revenue per square foot data for similar retail<br>
>> > businesses could be used as a benchmark).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > You don't have to get super technical, as that will turn some people<br>
>> > off, but you have to also instill confidence in the worthiness of the<br>
>> > investment and probable success of the project. Unless I see numbers,<br>
>> > I have a really hard time imagining the cost justification for using<br>
>> > hydrogen fuel cells in the initial build. Or the initial $150+ per<br>
>> > square foot cost. Or the lack of maintenance costs and plans.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > If it were me, I would take a phased approach and demonstrate this on<br>
>> > a small scale before going big with it. Looking over the data, I think<br>
>> > it's possible to get 80% of the features for 20% of the cost.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > It's a noble project, but the pitch is difficult to understand from a<br>
>> > technical perspective. I think you need a better model of the project<br>
>> > in order for it to go viral. It has to seem just within reach to get<br>
>> > people excited. That means an achievable initial investment, very<br>
>> > little waste (with each sub project justified), a cost-effective<br>
>> > architecture, and a 10-20 year Return on Investment including the<br>
>> > continuous costs to run the facility over that time period.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > If the facility were to be paid off by member dues alone, 12 months *<br>
>> > 20 years = 240 dues payments, which requires 6000+ members to pay off.<br>
>> > Also troubling is the lack of information about continuous labor<br>
>> > costs, licensing, inspection, impact fees, and contractor costs.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > So why is the pitch so vague?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Steven<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Oct 3, 2012 12:09 PM, "Matt Joyce"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Seems like a total scam. The cost estimates are nonsensical and<br>
>> > there is practically zero detail on the project beyond those.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Probably had to use indiegogo cause kickstarter would have shot<br>
>> > the idea as proposed down.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -matt<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Oct 3, 2012 8:57 AM, "Psy Tek"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:psytek@alphaonelabs.com" target="_blank">psytek@alphaonelabs.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:psytek@alphaonelabs.com" target="_blank">psytek@alphaonelabs.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Hello,<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > I'm writing to let you know about 'hackert0wn', a pioneering<br>
>> > educational center for clean technology and sustainability<br>
>> > featuring the world's first marketplace for hackers.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Take a moment to check it out on Indiegogo and also share it<br>
>> > with your friends. All the tools are there. Get perks, make<br>
>> > a contribution, or simply follow updates. If enough of us get<br>
>> > behind it, we can make 'hackert0wn' happen.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a href="http://www.indiegogo.com/hackert0wn?a=1498290&i=emal" target="_blank">http://www.indiegogo.com/hackert0wn?a=1498290&i=emal</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Discuss mailing list<br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>><br>
>> > <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Discuss mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>><br>
>> > <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Discuss mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>><br>
>> > <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>> Hi hackers,<br>
>><br>
>> Wow so they have a t0wn, mugs and much more things but no website?<br>
>><br>
>> No webmaster in a hackertown -_-'<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Aurelien DESBRIERES<br>
>> Ride Free! Ride GNU.org<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list<br>
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>> <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Nils Hitze<br><br>Email: <a href="mailto:nhitze@gmail.com" target="_blank">nhitze@gmail.com</a><br>Mobil: <a href="tel:%2B49%20179%209429701" value="+491799429701" target="_blank">+49 179 9429701</a><br>
<br>Blog: <a href="http://www.silberkind.de" target="_blank">silberkind.de</a><div>
G+: <a href="http://silberkind.de/+" target="_blank">silberkind.de/+</a><br>Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/kojote" target="_blank">@kojote</a></div><br>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div>