[SpaceProgram] Request: accountability frameworks for makerspace governance?

Mon May 30 02:17:07 CEST 2016

"It was jerry who worked for darpa dude i told you that many times
privately,"

Yes, you're right. I'm a forgetful moron. Oh wait, am I?

There was no need to tell me privately, because Jerry had (sub)contractor
affiliation with DARPA according to his published resume. So when you
described this person as a DARPA employee ("a friend who used to work at
DarPA.") when you could have just written "Jerry", and said he took it all
over after you gave up, I assumed you /couldn't/ be talking about Jerry who
you'd earlier described as giving it all up because he had bigger (income)
fish to fry. I wonder if it could have been Peiter Zatko, especially since
turnover is high at DARPA.

Maybe you were talking about different time frames. But I have no absolute
chronology to work from, so I tend to take your general statements in the
context of everything that happened from the very beginning to the  end of
DARPA-funded history of SpaceGAMBIT.

As Paul says, it would be nice to know what happened when.

"I didnt get my second half because my project failed horribly due to lack
of realistic scope."

I asked for a scoring algorithm -- open-sourcing the selection criteria
--so I'd know what to aim for in my own project proposal. Even considering
that DARPA is considered the "VC of DoD", and a high failure rate is
expected, part of scoring any project proposal is an assessment of realism:
how doable is the project, and how prepared are the people who'd do it?
This is where a more open style could have saved you: with more eyes on the
proposal (AKA "peer review") a more realistic scope might have been worked
out.

Regards,
Michael Turner
Executive Director
Project Persephone
K-1 bldg 3F
7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
turner at projectpersephone.org
http://www.projectpersephone.org/

"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 2:52 AM, cole santos <cksantos85 at gmail.com> wrote:

> It was jerry who worked for darpa dude i told you that many times
> privately, and i agree with you mostly on the waste and BS. The
> spreadsheets you saw got worse i'm sure. I never saw any of the final stuff
> but i can tell you jerry was barely in hawaii for 2 years. There were no
> egregious thefts, but the project was mishandled and its mostly my fault.
> As for code from a coding project, the grantees were not required to
> produce anything unless they wanted the second half of the grant. So the
> project probably failed. I didnt get my second half because my project
> failed horribly due to lack of realistic scope. To get my second half of
> the grant i had to file records on peoples hours, dollars spent, etc. None
> of this was told to us in the beginning so we weren't even taking records.
> So many projects only got the intial funding which was like 16 of 20. I
> blew the money from mine on parts 100% and still didnt have enough cash for
> what i was trying to do. I only did the organization in the beginning,
> jerry did an insane amount of work afterwords with the europe employee.
> Jerry doesent work on it anymore but i think the other guy does. You could
> still join with him and seek another grant.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Michael Turner <
> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Every iota of every fund was tracked."
>>
>> Really?  So that satellite simulator software project -- somewhere, there
>> are timesheets with hours logged, for the $20,000 open-source project with
>> no code checked in anywhere I can find?
>>
>> "The reporting requirements exceeded the value of the contract by an
>> order of magnitude."
>>
>> "Order of magnitude" = 10x. You're saying it would have cost $5 million
>> to meet the costs of the requirements reporting for spending $500,000?
>>
>> "I didn't have the balls to quit my job to run it."
>>
>> At various times, you've told us that you did all the work, that Jerry
>> ended up with all of it, that you finally gave it all to an unnamed friend
>> who used to work at DARPA (hm, we have to add revolving doors to our
>> suspicions?)
>>
>> I see spreadsheets shared to me that had 4 full-time-equivalent salaries
>> budgeted. $16,000 per month for those. As someone who has been his own main
>> donor, and who has funded it all out of a day job, and has only able to eke
>> out a bit of progress now and then, I'd probably strangle my own mother to
>> have a situation where I'd have that much freedom to allocate that much
>> money, while on salary for two years.
>>
>> "Jerry felt like he had liability so he saw making decisions with no
>> group input as necessary to his financial well being."
>>
>> Very interesting way to put it. And how is his financial well-being these
>> days? Any nice new equipment at Maui Makers? Any investments in Maui
>> beachfront property?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Michael Turner
>> Executive Director
>> Project Persephone
>> K-1 bldg 3F
>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>
>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
>> together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>
>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 12:28 PM, cole santos <cksantos85 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Every iota of every fund was tracked. Im sure some accountant has it
>>> somewhere. Its why i didn't get all our projects funding(most didnt). The
>>> reporting requirements exceeded the value of the contract by an order of
>>> magnitude. In almost all cases each project bit off more than it could chew
>>> with funds avail. On the admin side, I got this grant funded under a
>>> friends lcc because no one else could get it done. I didn't have the balls
>>> to quit my job to run it. So I pushed it on the founder of our local
>>> makerspace. For better or worse he didnt really want to do it, saw it as a
>>> burdensome thing. Because of that they did not spend the money to create a
>>> lasting program. The whole thing was very complicated in the beginning, but
>>> once the contract was awarded to a sole proprietorship, the mojo flew out
>>> the door. Jerry felt like he had liability so he saw making decisions with
>>> no group input as necessary to his financial well being. Most likely scared
>>> of being sued by disgruntled makers who complain alot...
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Turner <
>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "I don't necessarily subscribe to Michael's statement "every iota of
>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>> be recorded"."
>>>>
>>>> Let me be literal: "Can be" is not "will be" or "must be". It's just
>>>> the capability. Used to the degree that's called for.
>>>>
>>>> And here's what that literal requirement came out of, more so than the
>>>> SpaceGAMBIT debacle: going to Kenya on a mission to set up a hacking-themed
>>>> non-profit. You know, Kenya? Where corruption is a way of life? The high
>>>> life, for the big winners of that game?
>>>>
>>>> I went to Kenya with an idea in mind: femtosatellites that can now be
>>>> built for around $100 in parts cost could be great educational tools for
>>>> getting kids excited about "bare-metal programming", instrumentation and
>>>> electronics generally. With only ~$10,000, I might supply 100 East African
>>>> schools with an actual spacecraft. (Stretching the definition of spacecraft
>>>> a little.) I even brought along a KickSat Sprite development kit to
>>>> demonstrate to people. I had plans to make 20 more kits back home, kits I'd
>>>> need put together myself, for $2,000 in fab costs and parts.
>>>>
>>>> But I also went to dip a toe in the water. What would it really be
>>>> like, trying to do that? I didn't want it to be one-time-only. I didn't
>>>> want it to be fire-and-forget. I wanted to build an organization there. I
>>>> had longer-term goals, going beyond these femtosats. And that meant
>>>> figuring out how to keep the money coming.
>>>>
>>>> Before I went, I spoke about my plans with a guy here in Tokyo who'd
>>>> been to Kenya several times in search of organizations to fund -- and in
>>>> particular, to learn how to responsibly spend the donations he was
>>>> collecting from members of his Tokyo society. I told him what I wanted to
>>>> do. He just looked at me, furrowed his brow, and said nothing.
>>>>
>>>> I came back from Kenya with quite a few stories. I told him these
>>>> stories. He nodded. He said, "I met with over 100 non-profits and
>>>> community-based organizations in Kenya. I found only five I felt I could
>>>> trust."
>>>>
>>>> This was demoralizing -- so far beyond my own merely-anecdotal evidence
>>>> that I couldn't deny what the major challenge was: becoming tightfisted,
>>>> suspicious, and controlling. It's not my nature. But I am software
>>>> engineer. (Or was.) Could it be automated to any degree?
>>>>
>>>> And there was hope, suddenly: I exchanged email with a Kenyan database
>>>> analyst and admin who'd done work for such organizations. She said the ones
>>>> that managed to not piss off and alienate donors -- the ones that could
>>>> survive and execute on a strategy that amounted to more than just finding
>>>> yet another one of those donors that's born every minute -- were the ones
>>>> that installed down-to-the-penny accounting systems and
>>>> down-to-the-half-hour accountability frameworks.
>>>>
>>>> I want a framework that CAN scale down to the resolution of a penny
>>>> because, in places where pennies matter, there are always people who will
>>>> try to rob you of them. And if you lose a significant amount of money to
>>>> internal corruption, enough to think of taking the theft to court, well,
>>>> good luck with that. Because then you're up against /external/ corruption.
>>>> The judge is always the thief's nephew's best friend's father-in-law's
>>>> uncle, or else can be had for a bribe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Michael Turner
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> Project Persephone
>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>
>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
>>>> together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Paul Szymkowiak <paulszym at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Having been involved in the "hackerspace space program" and the
>>>>> subsequent "Space GAMBIT" projects being discussed here from the beginning,
>>>>> and also having been a moderator for previous interactions Michael Turner
>>>>> has had on mailing lists associated with these efforts, I'd like to add a
>>>>> few comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam, I have also worked with a number of philanthropist groups, and I
>>>>> agree it is possible - for certain types of projects in certain contexts -
>>>>> to remain focused on an outcome and operate predominantly on trust.
>>>>> However, I would argue that this often relies on existing organisational
>>>>> structures and constitutions, either implicit or explicit, and that scaling
>>>>> this is possible but often problematic (in my experience, most cases fail).
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of Space GAMBIT, we attempted to form a globally operating
>>>>> entity (or network of) based on a significant founding grant under a highly
>>>>> regulated set of industry rules and regulations. I think that makes this
>>>>> context significantly different and the associated problems much more
>>>>> wicked. If we're to contemplate further space-program efforts within the
>>>>> global maker & hacker hobbyist communities, we need to learn from the
>>>>> mistakes made here and find a better way forward.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Michael's request to discuss accountability frameworks is a
>>>>> completely reasonable proposal, and in light of the serious failings in the
>>>>> execution of the Space GAMBIT effort, completely justified. In the past,
>>>>> I've critiqued Michael for personal attacks, but I'm not seeing that in
>>>>> this case: I'm seeing what I consider quite reasonable critique: and given
>>>>> that I'm one of the people that critique is directed at, I welcome it.
>>>>>
>>>>> From my perspective, Michael's request is an important and valid one
>>>>> in the light of Space GAMBIT, and so-far I haven't seen anything in the way
>>>>> of constructive response. Does that mean that no such accountability
>>>>> framework(s) exist in the hacker/ maker community, and that we're all
>>>>> operating on systems based on good will, trust and personal integrity?
>>>>>
>>>>> If not, I'd welcome folks sharing their experiences with suitable
>>>>> frameworks they've found workable. If so, I'd echo Michael's concern that
>>>>> when donors are contributing significant funds, good will, trust and
>>>>> personal integrity aren't enough to support such endeavours, and in the
>>>>> case of Space GAMBIT, failed horribly. It's completely justifiable and I
>>>>> think helpful, to look back on the mistake, critique it and learn from it
>>>>> so that we can avoid making it again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't necessarily subscribe to Michael's statement "every iota of
>>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>>> be recorded". There are various ways in which "every iota" and "every
>>>>> penny" might be problematic, however I think the general idea of tracking
>>>>> spending, revenue, effort, assets (including intellectual property) is
>>>>> completely reasonable - in fact, needed - and there should be ways to do
>>>>> this transparently and simply as a natural part of doing work on the
>>>>> project.
>>>>>
>>>>> In some ways, we're looking at how open communities can operate in a
>>>>> way true to our ethics and principles, within required legislative
>>>>> structures that are arguably based on dated western ideals of
>>>>> organisations/ legal entities. We need supporting structures and systems
>>>>> that allow us to operate legally and with manageable risk within the
>>>>> existing overarching system(s).
>>>>>
>>>>> If anything, Michael has been somewhat charitable in his critique.
>>>>> When Michael says "the dodge took the form of locating all authority
>>>>> over spending that $500,000 in a tiny handful of people who operated in a
>>>>> pretty opaque fashion", it would be more accurate to say that, once the
>>>>> funding landed, "in the hands of a single person".
>>>>>
>>>>> That was never the intention of the project, went against everything
>>>>> the group had specifically worked hard on over many months on the
>>>>> grant application, and ultimately destroyed the global collaborative nature
>>>>> of the project. Once that occurred, there seemed to be no way back
>>>>> from that fatal mistake, and that cast the actions of the individual
>>>>> involved in an increasingly negative light. It was easy to paint a picture
>>>>> alleging corruption, although I suspect it was predominantly a mix of
>>>>> overbearing control-freak personality and personal financial fear.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an important community failure that I for one am keen to learn
>>>>> from, never repeat, and find better ways of undertaking in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Szymkowiak
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27 May 2016 at 08:43, Sam Tobin <sam.tobin at nrsnz.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Diminishing return guys/girls...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've worked on large ESA projects with massive overheads and
>>>>>> scrutiny, and on tiny garage-based projects. Accountability, workplans etc
>>>>>> are tools... and as always one needs the right tools for the task at hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've also worked for a philanthropist group, and (might be unique,
>>>>>> but maybe not)... they were mostly interested in outcomes, not details.
>>>>>> Simply put, the approach was to trust the person/group, check outcomes,
>>>>>> repeat with person/group at larger $ scale if good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27 May 2016 at 05:08, Michael Turner <
>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure that's been your experience, Matt. Subjectively, it has
>>>>>>> also been mine. I've chafed under accountability frameworks in almost every
>>>>>>> organization I've ever been in. They've always felt like a "massive,
>>>>>>> worthless drain."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's the thing, though: the ones that didn't have them, fell
>>>>>>> apart. Sometimes in very embarrassing ways. And one thing I've learned in
>>>>>>> trying to work with nonprofits in some parts of the world is that if you
>>>>>>> ask for accountability, and get only indignation in response, you're better
>>>>>>> off turning away and not bothering with those people ever again. They are
>>>>>>> on the take. I don't want to be like them. When potential donors say, "I
>>>>>>> need to look at how you spend money," I want to be in a position throw all
>>>>>>> the verification at them that they could possibly want, and more. They'll
>>>>>>> want to know that the level of parasitism in my organization is acceptably
>>>>>>> low. How can I blame them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Permit a biological metaphor: a fair amount of any creature's
>>>>>>> metabolism goes into supporting its immune system. It's a lot. It's a
>>>>>>> massive, worthless drain, actually. Until there's an infection, or a
>>>>>>> cluster of mutant cells that might turn into a malignant tumor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Silence Dogood <
>>>>>>> matt at nycresistor.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my experience, working for a space agency, people who are
>>>>>>>> interested in "setting up a framework in which every iota of
>>>>>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>>>>>> be recorded."  are usually a massive worthless drain on the
>>>>>>>> project and very interested in inserting themselves in places they have no
>>>>>>>> earthly business being, just to justify their continued leeching upon the
>>>>>>>> project.  And, more often then not, they cost more than they benefit
>>>>>>>> anyone... not just in fiduciary cost, but in time, complexity, and general
>>>>>>>> nuisance factor introduced into the day to day operational workflow of the
>>>>>>>> group working on the project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Matt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Michael Turner <
>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt, in my experience of hackerspaces, there's lots of bitter
>>>>>>>>> argument by people who aren't contributing much of anything, much of the
>>>>>>>>> time. I tried. Eventually, I walked. I contributed time, money, equipment,
>>>>>>>>> project ideas ... but ultimately, I walked. I felt pretty alienated by
>>>>>>>>> know-it-all attitudes and a kind of knee-jerk anti-authoritarianism that
>>>>>>>>> prefers unproductive chaos to reasonable order.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, again:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota of
>>>>>>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>>>>>>> be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some point,
>>>>>>>>> and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd like to
>>>>>>>>> hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up such
>>>>>>>>> frameworks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:08 AM, Silence Dogood <
>>>>>>>>> matt at nycresistor.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In open source, committers walk and everyone else talks... and is
>>>>>>>>>> promptly ignored.  If you think something can be done better, do it
>>>>>>>>>> better.  Leadership is an act of demonstrating a better path forward.
>>>>>>>>>> Decrying folks is not productive.  We know success when we see it,
>>>>>>>>>> everything else is just more of the same.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, stop bitching, and go make a difference.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Matt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Michael Turner <
>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've
>>>>>>>>>>> sent has been a slash and burn."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm destructive? What's more destructive: criticism of
>>>>>>>>>>> corruption, or corruption?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 12:57 AM, David <ainut at hiwaay.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've sent
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/18/2016 11:02 AM, cole santos wrote:has been a slash and
>>>>>>>>>>>> burn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> David Merchant
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lol you just don't get it troll
>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 18, 2016 1:03 AM, "Michael Turner" <
>>>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mike no one wanted to work with you because of emails like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you just sent."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought there should be more openness and oversight, and so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nobody wanted to work with me? Interesting. I hadn't realized that openness
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and oversight were such unpopular things when spending taxpayers money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless, of course, you're a taxpayer. Are you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Since I wrote the grant, and got the Corp formed, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> followed through until the project start, I think it's ok moraly."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I always assumed an education in philosophy would acquaint a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> person with the difference between morals and ethics. You learn something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> every day, I guess.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682 <%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:48 AM, cole santos <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cksantos85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike no one wanted to work with you because of emails like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you just sent. We are amateurs hacking it. Ps haesh was my project and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was somewhat a sweetheart deal. I had to choose between a project or a job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I wrote the grant, and got the Corp formed, and followed through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until the project start, I think it's ok moraly. The other projects were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all random submissions. The principal aka jerry got overwhelmed and didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even really want the job. I kinda forced it on him as I had a full time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job. Reality is not nearly as sensational as u wish.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2016 9:07 PM, "Michael Turner" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First things first:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point, and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such frameworks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, about the "drama":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:51 AM, gmc <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gmc at hackerspaces.org>gmc at hackerspaces.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay, drama. It's what hackers are best at! Bye bye mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly, some disillusionment and malaise has set in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hackerspaces.org? No blog update since just about two years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting critique there, though:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://flux.hackerspaces.org/2014/01/19/diversity-and-the-hacker-scene/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drama will never go away permanently. Sometimes the only way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to quell drama is with rules.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you're going to have rules, you can try counting on ideas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like legitimizing all decisions through the rule of relying on consensus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (it always breaks down). Or on rules set by some "benevolent oligarchy"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (the "oligarchs" often get tired of arbitration and moderation, and go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missing.) There are a variety of other dodges of the basic responsibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of collective governance, which is tedious and stressful compared to making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of SpaceGAMBIT, the dodge took the form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> locating all authority over spending that $500,000 in a tiny handful of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who operated in a pretty opaque fashion. In at least one case, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opacity was defended by a SpaceGAMBIT principal in terms of DARPA's tight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulations about the release of information. When I asked for chapter and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verse of those regulations, there was no answer. Wait: you're saying you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got money from a government agency that doesn't tell taxpayers the basis on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it allows awarded organizations to release information about how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxpayer money is being spent? Interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the nature of the political differences over taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money from DARPA, I can see a reason for not identifying winning teams when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the awards went out. It might have been defensible as a way to protect the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awarded teams from harassment by those who were most loudly opposed to that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money, and to what any hackerspace group taking that money symbolized to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem was: opacity could enable sweetheart deals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Waste. Lax controls.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what do we have at the end?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Examples:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $20,000 for an open source satellite mission design project
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that apparently never checked anything into a repo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The HAESH project, which, by some odd coincidence, was based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Hawaii. (And apparently on Maui.)That was statistically unlikely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially when you consider that the main SpaceGAMBIT executive exulted at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one point about how great it was to work internationally, not just in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America, and not just in his tiny home region of -- you guessed it --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hawaii. Maui, in fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about the thousands of dollars for the open source
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make-a-Space Kit? It had a laudable goal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The goal of this project is to complete the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content--finalize the entire kit-- and then create a turn-key online
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template which a new or existing space can use to instantiate the online
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> project management, assign specific tasks to board members, track
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accountability, and effectively communicate about the status of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> activities as the space is launched and formed."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is it? Dead links on the SpaceGAMBIT site. Try to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something back from the Wayback Machine? Unsuccessful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about that Asteroid Badge?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/CuriosityHacked/Learning/wiki/SpaceAsteroids
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's something in there that looks like a rough draft of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make-a-Space Kit, but certainly nothing that looks "finalized."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thousands of dollars spent on those two projects. And this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is all there is to show for it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's what happens when there's no openness or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accountability, and when money can be spent without significant oversight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a small group of people.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, to repeat my request:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point, and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such frameworks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682 <%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16 May 2016 18:26:04 CEST, Michael Turner <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:55 AM, cole santos <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <cksantos85 at gmail.com>cksantos85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually we took the DarPA money and the project was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great success. <http://Www.spacegambit.Com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Www.spacegambit.Com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A great success for some people, I suppose.  In a certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I pick a project at random.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funding: $20,000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceGAMBIT claim: only open source projects will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> funded.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reality: well, ta! ke a look.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    <http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excuse: "schedules slip". OK, but you can't check in any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code, anywhere?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At least, that's the only repo I could find.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's nothing in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was largely because of my concerns about openness,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clear communication, democratic process, and leadership accountability that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I decided to have nothing further to do with SpaceGAMBIT. This was after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feeling enthusiastic about it and even defending it against what I thought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was unfair criticism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Really, I'd prefer to have been wrong in my suspicions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682 <%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <turner at projectpersephone.org>turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.projectpersephone.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 16, 2016, Michael P Weber II <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <michaelweberii at gmail.com>michaelweberii at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:05 AM, Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Whether intentional or not, the choice of watercress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > space-relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (1) Biosphere II saw the direct participation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> late Roy Walford, MD, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > pioneer self-experimenter in CRON (calorie restriction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with optimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > nutrition) as a strategy for life extension. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> research interested the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Biosphere II organizers because, in feeding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long-duration space mission
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > participants, fewer calories eaten means, to a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first approximation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > less mass for the ecological life support system,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leading to lower mission
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > cost, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (2) Research into how CRON appears to increase
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifespans (in part by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > reducing cancer risk -- a big issue in space travel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because of space
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > radiation) reveals that it's more about protein
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restriction than about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > calorie restriction per se.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (3) Further research has suggested that it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically reduction of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > methionine intake that is the main driver of life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension in CRON (hence,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > presumably, lower cancer risk);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (4) High-glycine diets sop up excess methionine. (To
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be sure: methionine is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > an essential amino acid; glycine is not. But it seems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that with methionine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > you can get too much of a good thing.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (5) Watercress is very high in glycine, quite low in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methionine. Watercress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > might be ideal for offsetting the cancer risks from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space radiation in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > long-duration space missions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I think a good next step in such work would be to try
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to optimize watercress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > production in an aeroponic rather than a hydroponic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> style. Hydroponics is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > great, highly productive, but ... water is heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aeroponics can give you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > much of the benefit of hydroponics but with a fraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the equipment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > mass. Aeroponics should be more adaptable to low-g and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> microgravity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > environments since it's not gravity-dependent -- it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically just the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > deposition of nutrient-enriched mist droplets on plant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots. Aeroponics may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > have gotten its start from NASA funding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <http://www.projectpersephone.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking outward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > together in the same direction." -- Antoine de
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you going to take over the list then?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing listSpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ SpaceProgram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ SpaceProgram
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing listSpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
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