[SpaceProgram] Project Management, Starships, and the Failure of Modern Physics - YouTube

[Matt Johnson]

Cole, those are interesting examples and persuasive ones. A
sustainable closed cycle habitat will obviously be necessary for any
meaningful planetary or interstellar space exploration or
colonization. I just think it is a lot easier when you have about 1g
of gravity, you can breath the air and the temperature variations are
modest as they are on our planet. Still if we cannot do it here we
cannot do it in space, so seasteading could be a big step in the right
direction.

--
Matt Johnson



On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 1:05 PM, cole santos <cksantos85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sea-steading crossover would be in certain systems. Sustainable habitat
> design with a small footprint, waste management, food production, and small
> scale replication of industrial processes. If you look at their website
> their goal is to be independent of land based infrastructure. As an avid
> diver, I can tell you that the underwater environment is about as close to
> weightlessness as you can get. The issues of decompression, bends, and other
> pressure sicknesses apply in space as much as underwater. Thier habitats
> must be water proof, and if its water proof its air proof. Think about a
> sail boat. How long can you last without going ashore for fuel and water,
> dumping waste(assuming you dont use the ocean as a dumping ground, hence the
> sustainble part)? One stepwise goal could be to design a close cycle boat
> for 1 man and send him around for a while. Initial projects could be aspects
> of that entire system. Toilets, waste processing, micro showers, food
> production systems, air handling systems, ect. You would need to process
> waste, capture water, control atmosphere, do hydroponics, ect in space and
> seasteaders would need similar tech. This would allow us to test habitat
> level 1 tech readiness technology without the cost of booting it to space.
> First test on ground, then at sea, then in space. NASA does the same thing
> that's what Aquarius was for. Navel engineering is not even close to the
> state where it can be considered a closed ecological system. They dump their
> waste at sea, they burn insane amounts of fuel to make water, cook food,
> ect. They desalinate water instead of processing their waste water, ect.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:00 AM, Matt Johnson <railmeat at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Cole, I cannot think of much tech that could cross over from
>> seasteading to spacesteading. The seasteaders have it easy they rely
>> on navel architecture, as well understood and established engineering
>> domain. Not much technical research is required.
>>
>> They are much more ambitious in the political, legal, social and
>> economic realms. I am sure spacesteaders will be able to learn a lot
>> from seasteaders in those areas.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Johnson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:08 PM, cole santos <cksantos85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Seasteading has almost identical needs as spacesteading in theory it
>> > easyer
>> > to develop. Perhaps it could be a stepwise goal. A lot of tech could
>> > cross
>> > over.
>> >
>> > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Jerry Isdale <jerry at mauimakers.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There was an interesting talk at 100YSS on SeaSteading ... homesteaders
>> >> going to sea... or under it.
>> >>     http://lmgtfy.com/?q=seasteading
>> >>
>> >> Definitely an option to investigate.
>> >>
>> >> Jerry Isdale
>> >> http://MauiMakers.com
>> >> http://www.mauimakers.com/blog/thursday-public-meeting/
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 23, 2012, at 4:14 AM, ainut at hiwaay.net wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > It would not have to be a standalone unit.  It could be one of the
>> >> > underwater restaurants that we install an airlock in.
>> >> >
>> >> > Or we could just build one that way.  Part of it above the water or
>> >> > on
>> >> > land, and part underwater.  This type, however, would allow designers
>> >> > to be
>> >> > sloppy since the danger factor is much less than a pure underwater,
>> >> > standalone unit.
>> >> >
>> >> > David M.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Quoting cole santos <cksantos85 at gmail.com>:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I think an underwater habitat would be a great project. If you can
>> >> >> figure a
>> >> >> way to get one to maui we could look around for some grants (NOAA,
>> >> >> NASA).
>> >> >> But 5k is not enough. Multi million is a bit much, but its still a
>> >> >> 100k+
>> >> >> project AFTER moving it. You need a big boat for support. It could
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> done
>> >> >> privately as well with tourism as main capacity and space research
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> an ancillary use.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I know a guy in the big island had a big bubble dome. I dove it
>> >> >> once.
>> >> >> Had
>> >> >> to bring an extra tank to fill it up.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The state of Hawaii would allow us to lease underwater space. It has
>> >> >> been
>> >> >> done for the ocean aquaculture guys.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is a year 3-5 project idea AFTER we get a sustainable income
>> >> >> stream,
>> >> >> through grants, donations, and other fundraising.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Jerry Isdale <jerry at mauimakers.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> There is a reason the abandoned or soon to be abandoned underwater
>> >> >>> habitats are that way.
>> >> >>> Mostly they have outlived their usable lifetimes.
>> >> >>> One of my neighbors used to work on the NOAA Aquarius habitat like
>> >> >>> 10-15yrs ago.
>> >> >>> he said it was old and dangerous back then.
>> >> >>> A real underwater habitat would be a multi-million dollar endeavor,
>> >> >>> and so
>> >> >>> beyond the scope of what we could do.
>> >> >>> An inflatable underwater garden/greenhouse? maybe that would be
>> >> >>> doable.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Propulsion and guidance for atmospheric rockets is covered by ITAR
>> >> >>> I
>> >> >>> think.
>> >> >>> Interplanetary is probably not.  Interstellar is probably too far
>> >> >>> out
>> >> >>> for
>> >> >>> them to worry about (aside from nuclear which is restricted for
>> >> >>> other
>> >> >>> reasons)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The video that started this thread looked back at the history of
>> >> >>> physics
>> >> >>> and identified a point where something happened.
>> >> >>> Maxwell's unification of Electro-Magnetic-Light started a highly
>> >> >>> productive time in physics and engineering.
>> >> >>> And yet it was met with such vehement antagonism that a major
>> >> >>> simplification/approximation was required for its acceptance.
>> >> >>> What if there is a whole lot more lying in wait beyond that
>> >> >>> approximation?
>> >> >>> Buck seemed to think it was a good fertile ground for research.
>> >> >>> I think there are too few people who understand quaternions and the
>> >> >>> basics
>> >> >>> of EM theory expressed that way.
>> >> >>> I've started digging into it slowly (reading
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://www.das.uchile.cl/~rmendez/Documents/Roger_Penrose_Road_to_reality.pdf
>> >> >>> )
>> >> >>> over my head in first pages. I'd love a hacker based intro to the
>> >> >>> concepts.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Jerry Isdale
>> >> >>> http://MauiMakers.com
>> >> >>> http://www.mauimakers.com/blog/thursday-public-meeting/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sep 22, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Alex Cureton-Griffiths wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I like this idea! Any links for location/cost/condition/etc?
>> >> >>> Renovating a
>> >> >>> research station to make it usable would be a useful experience in
>> >> >>> itself.
>> >> >>> I think some of the Maui Makers crew have scuba experience as well,
>> >> >>> so
>> >> >>> they'd be a good match for this project
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Propulsion is covered under ITAR I think, so doing anything
>> >> >>> hands-on
>> >> >>> (or
>> >> >>> even hands-off) with that is a no-go since we're an international
>> >> >>> organization. I love the idea of livability testing.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 23 Sep, 2012, at 12:07 PM, ainut at hiwaay.net wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Methinks one of the best items we could do with small sums of money
>> >> >>> is
>> >> >>> adopt one of abandoned underwater "livability" research stations.
>> >> >>> With one
>> >> >>> of those, we could really test ideas from the group to see if it
>> >> >>> would
>> >> >>> work
>> >> >>> in space.  How long term the tests are would depend upon each
>> >> >>> individual
>> >> >>> goal, of course, but these 'habitats' are very cheap (maybe free)
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>> are
>> >> >>> test beds that will actually bite you if your ideas are not
>> >> >>> workable.
>> >> >>> Small scale, of course.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> We need to think about the spaceship propulsion certainly, but
>> >> >>> livability
>> >> >>> is just as high a concern; maybe higher if people are going on it!
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> David M.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Quoting Jerry Isdale <jerry at mauimakers.com>:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Aloha Matt
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Buck's talk was on the large scale - partially to say to the group
>> >> >>> at
>> >> >>> large - what needs to be done.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> If you are going to look at building an interstellar ship one big
>> >> >>> question
>> >> >>> is the physics of propulsion
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> that is what Buck focused on.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The 100YSS Org still seems pretty disOrg, IMHO. They have yet to
>> >> >>> create a
>> >> >>> separate entity to run things, operating under Mae's Mother's
>> >> >>> non-profit
>> >> >>> foundation for now.  I missed the wrapup session but I havent heard
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> grand vision yet.  Only seen one summary of event so far too.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> As for how a Hackerspace or alliance of spaces could do things...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It could be total anarchy, which would be mostly what hackers would
>> >> >>> prefer
>> >> >>> i think,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> but our program has somewhat lower aspirations, at least in the
>> >> >>> short
>> >> >>> term.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> One goal (akin to the 100YSS.org) is securing funding/donations to
>> >> >>> allow
>> >> >>> us to continue beyond the initial seed from DARPA.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Where we diverge immediately, is the hacker goal of MAKE SOMETHING.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> actually producing something will also help secure funding, IMHO
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The proposal team has several ideas for projects.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Cole has actually started on his (well he has 1000 ideas/min and
>> >> >>> 100
>> >> >>> projects started/wk)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Some other ideas have been talked about on this list or by private
>> >> >>> email.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> A Challenge is one option, but I dont think we can do an open ended
>> >> >>> one
>> >> >>> like X-Prize (like "create a FTL drive") as that might not be
>> >> >>> claimed
>> >> >>> by
>> >> >>> end of program. One challenge I have been talking up is an
>> >> >>> educational
>> >> >>> one
>> >> >>> -- create open curriculum space science and/or hacker-tech course
>> >> >>> with
>> >> >>> all
>> >> >>> material and replicate at another space purely using online comms.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> We will most likely have an official RFP out in a month or so.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Start thinking of ideas - short run, low budget (3-6mo, <$5000USD).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> General area - humanity's long term survival and expansion into
>> >> >>> space
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Jerry Isdale
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> isdale at spacegambit.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> USA Program Lead, SpaceGAMBIT
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Global Alliance of Makers Building Interstellar Technology
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://SpaceGAMBIT.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> This email is intended only for the personal and confidential use
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> human(s) named above. If intercepted by an extraterrestrial
>> >> >>> civilization,
>> >> >>> all opinions expressed in this email are my own and do not
>> >> >>> necessarily
>> >> >>> reflect the opinion of mankind as a whole.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sep 22, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi Jerry, I met you at 100YSS, that is how I heard about your space
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> GAMBIT and this email list. As I understood it the talk was about
>> >> >>> how
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> to focus physics research at a large scale, such as federally
>> >> >>> funded
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> research projects and large university. I see hacker spaces
>> >> >>> involved
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> in a large number of small loosely coordinated, or uncoordinated
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> projects. Is that wrong? Since these project will be smaller, they
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> would use more mundane project management techniques.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I had hoped that 100YSS would present some kind of road map or
>> >> >>> broad
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> plan that the various groups working on interstellar space could
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> follow. I still hope they present something. It would probably be
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> worthwhile asking someone at 100YSS if they plan to produce a road
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> map.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I am not sure how best to proceed with this sort of problem. You
>> >> >>> must
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> have given it some thought before you made the DARPA grant
>> >> >>> proposals.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> What did you come up with? If I were thrown into this problem with
>> >> >>> no
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> preparation I would start with some kind of literature search to
>> >> >>> get a
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> picture of the current situation and try to interview experienced
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> researchers in the field to find out what they think the next steps
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> should be. Then some kind of RFP process to see what people are
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> interested in doing.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I am not sure how something like RFPs would work in a hacker
>> >> >>> context,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> do you know of examples of this being done? Perhaps an "X prize"
>> >> >>> style
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> approach is more appropriate. In either case they would benefit
>> >> >>> from
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> some kind of evangelism and marketing.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Matt Johnson
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Jerry Isdale
>> >> >>> <jerry at mauimakers.com>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> This was given in the context of the 100YSS organization.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> There are probably a half dozen different non-profit organizations
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> groups now pursuing space technology.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> To some extent each of these (including our SpaceGAMBIT) does
>> >> >>> 'control
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> project goals and funds' which decides what work will be done, at
>> >> >>> least on
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> their nickel.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> If you have a limited amount of funds and your goal is to give it
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> hackers
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> to further space education and research
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> how would you decide what work will be done?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> That is a quandary that I face.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Please help us decide.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Jerry Isdale
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> isdale at spacegambit.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> USA Program Lead, SpaceGAMBIT
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Global Alliance of Makers Building Interstellar Technology
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://SpaceGAMBIT.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> This email is intended only for the personal and confidential use
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> human(s) named above. If intercepted by an extraterrestrial
>> >> >>> civilization,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> all opinions expressed in this email are my own and do not
>> >> >>> necessarily
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> reflect the opinion of mankind as a whole.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sep 22, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Interesting talk, the sliders were pretty funky though. I am sure
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> there is a lot to be gained by using the best technics in decision
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> making and project management. That assumes that there is some
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> organziation or body that controls project goals and funds and that
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> can decided what work will be done. That does not match with my
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> understanding of what a hacker space is.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Matt Johnson
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Jerry Isdale <isdale at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> This was the talk at 100YSS Symposium that kicked me off on
>> >> >>> Quaternion
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Maxwell Physics.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The engineer part of me likes the rigor Buck brings to the
>> >> >>> discussion
>> >> >>> ...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The hacker part of me wants to run screaming naked thru the
>> >> >>> rainforest
>> >> >>> (my
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> backyard).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t95xWsxqNvI
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The discussion of Heaviside-Tate flame war and impact on
>> >> >>> theoretical
>> >> >>> (and
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> applied) physics starts about 12min in.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The rest of discussion is pretty interesting too.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Jerry Isdale
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> isdale at spacegambit.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> USA Program Lead, SpaceGAMBIT
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Global Alliance of Makers Building Interstellar Technology
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://SpaceGAMBIT.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> This email is intended only for the personal and confidential use
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> human(s) named above. If intercepted by an extraterrestrial
>> >> >>> civilization,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> all opinions expressed in this email are my own and do not
>> >> >>> necessarily
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> reflect the opinion of mankind as a whole.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> >>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>> >> >>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> >>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > SpaceProgram mailing list
>> >> > SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> SpaceProgram mailing list
>> >> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> >> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > SpaceProgram mailing list
>> > SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> > http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>
>