[SpaceProgram] Project Management, Starships, and the Failure of Modern Physics - YouTube

ainut at hiwaay.net ainut at hiwaay.net
Sun Sep 23 16:10:59 CEST 2012 

Sometimes the reason these underwater labs are being discarded is lack  
of interest or funds.  Even if one we could afford is in bad shape, it  
might pay us to at least look at it to see if we could repair it  
cheaply enough...

If we are really working on interstellar or even interplanetary  
travel, we must not be constrained by current man-made limitations.   
Nuclear for power and/or propulsion is the most practical with our  
current knowledge state (at least mine!).  Of course, nuclear comes in  
many forms and formats, including fusion, fission, pure decay-mode  
driven, nuclear 'batteries', and so on.  While traveling-wave fission  
reactors seem most efficient for normal ship power, it might also be a  
viable source for propulsion in one form or another.  We are not  
limited to a single reactor or battery, either.  If the ship is built  
mostly in space, especially from materials from moons and/or  
asteroids, then very little weight will need be lifted from Earth  
itself, other than tools to make the tools that make the tools  
(recursively?).  Maybe the nuclear fuel as well, but that remains to  
be seen.

Going out on a limb here, w-a-y out, if we could even investigate the  
old 'cold fusion' (electrochemical fusion) methods, something viable  
just may turn up and not have to lift even the ships source fuel from  
Earth...

David M.



Quoting Jerry Isdale <jerry at mauimakers.com>:

> There is a reason the abandoned or soon to be abandoned underwater  
> habitats are that way.
> Mostly they have outlived their usable lifetimes.
> One of my neighbors used to work on the NOAA Aquarius habitat like  
> 10-15yrs ago.
> he said it was old and dangerous back then.
> A real underwater habitat would be a multi-million dollar endeavor,  
> and so beyond the scope of what we could do.
> An inflatable underwater garden/greenhouse? maybe that would be doable.
>
> Propulsion and guidance for atmospheric rockets is covered by ITAR I think.
> Interplanetary is probably not.  Interstellar is probably too far  
> out for them to worry about (aside from nuclear which is restricted  
> for other reasons)
>
> The video that started this thread looked back at the history of  
> physics and identified a point where something happened.
> Maxwell's unification of Electro-Magnetic-Light started a highly  
> productive time in physics and engineering.
> And yet it was met with such vehement antagonism that a major  
> simplification/approximation was required for its acceptance.
> What if there is a whole lot more lying in wait beyond that approximation?
> Buck seemed to think it was a good fertile ground for research.
> I think there are too few people who understand quaternions and the  
> basics of EM theory expressed that way.
> I've started digging into it slowly (reading  
> http://www.das.uchile.cl/~rmendez/Documents/Roger_Penrose_Road_to_reality.pdf)
> over my head in first pages. I'd love a hacker based intro to the concepts.
>
> Jerry Isdale
> http://MauiMakers.com
> http://www.mauimakers.com/blog/thursday-public-meeting/
>
> On Sep 22, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Alex Cureton-Griffiths wrote:
>
>> I like this idea! Any links for location/cost/condition/etc?  
>> Renovating a research station to make it usable would be a useful  
>> experience in itself. I think some of the Maui Makers crew have  
>> scuba experience as well, so they'd be a good match for this project
>>
>> Propulsion is covered under ITAR I think, so doing anything  
>> hands-on (or even hands-off) with that is a no-go since we're an  
>> international organization. I love the idea of livability testing.
>>
>> On 23 Sep, 2012, at 12:07 PM, ainut at hiwaay.net wrote:
>>
>>> Methinks one of the best items we could do with small sums of  
>>> money is adopt one of abandoned underwater "livability" research  
>>> stations.  With one of those, we could really test ideas from the  
>>> group to see if it would work in space.  How long term the tests  
>>> are would depend upon each individual goal, of course, but these  
>>> 'habitats' are very cheap (maybe free) and are test beds that will  
>>> actually bite you if your ideas are not workable.  Small scale, of  
>>> course.
>>>
>>> We need to think about the spaceship propulsion certainly, but  
>>> livability is just as high a concern; maybe higher if people are  
>>> going on it!
>>>
>>> David M.
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Jerry Isdale <jerry at mauimakers.com>:
>>>
>>>> Aloha Matt
>>>>
>>>> Buck's talk was on the large scale - partially to say to the  
>>>> group at large - what needs to be done.
>>>> If you are going to look at building an interstellar ship one big  
>>>> question is the physics of propulsion
>>>> that is what Buck focused on.
>>>>
>>>> The 100YSS Org still seems pretty disOrg, IMHO. They have yet to  
>>>> create a separate entity to run things, operating under Mae's  
>>>> Mother's non-profit foundation for now.  I missed the wrapup  
>>>> session but I havent heard of grand vision yet.  Only seen one  
>>>> summary of event so far too.
>>>>
>>>> As for how a Hackerspace or alliance of spaces could do things...
>>>> It could be total anarchy, which would be mostly what hackers  
>>>> would prefer i think,
>>>> but our program has somewhat lower aspirations, at least in the  
>>>> short term.
>>>>
>>>> One goal (akin to the 100YSS.org) is securing funding/donations  
>>>> to allow us to continue beyond the initial seed from DARPA.
>>>> Where we diverge immediately, is the hacker goal of MAKE SOMETHING.
>>>> actually producing something will also help secure funding, IMHO
>>>>
>>>> The proposal team has several ideas for projects.
>>>> Cole has actually started on his (well he has 1000 ideas/min and  
>>>> 100 projects started/wk)
>>>> Some other ideas have been talked about on this list or by private email.
>>>>
>>>> A Challenge is one option, but I dont think we can do an open  
>>>> ended one like X-Prize (like "create a FTL drive") as that might  
>>>> not be claimed by end of program. One challenge I have been  
>>>> talking up is an educational one -- create open curriculum space  
>>>> science and/or hacker-tech course with all material and replicate  
>>>> at another space purely using online comms.
>>>>
>>>> We will most likely have an official RFP out in a month or so.
>>>> Start thinking of ideas - short run, low budget (3-6mo, <$5000USD).
>>>> General area - humanity's long term survival and expansion into space
>>>>
>>>> Jerry Isdale
>>>> isdale at spacegambit.org
>>>> USA Program Lead, SpaceGAMBIT
>>>> Global Alliance of Makers Building Interstellar Technology
>>>> http://SpaceGAMBIT.org
>>>>
>>>> This email is intended only for the personal and confidential use  
>>>> of the human(s) named above. If intercepted by an  
>>>> extraterrestrial civilization, all opinions expressed in this  
>>>> email are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of  
>>>> mankind as a whole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 22, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jerry, I met you at 100YSS, that is how I heard about your space
>>>>> GAMBIT and this email list. As I understood it the talk was about how
>>>>> to focus physics research at a large scale, such as federally funded
>>>>> research projects and large university. I see hacker spaces involved
>>>>> in a large number of small loosely coordinated, or uncoordinated
>>>>> projects. Is that wrong? Since these project will be smaller, they
>>>>> would use more mundane project management techniques.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had hoped that 100YSS would present some kind of road map or broad
>>>>> plan that the various groups working on interstellar space could
>>>>> follow. I still hope they present something. It would probably be
>>>>> worthwhile asking someone at 100YSS if they plan to produce a road
>>>>> map.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure how best to proceed with this sort of problem. You must
>>>>> have given it some thought before you made the DARPA grant proposals.
>>>>> What did you come up with? If I were thrown into this problem with no
>>>>> preparation I would start with some kind of literature search to get a
>>>>> picture of the current situation and try to interview experienced
>>>>> researchers in the field to find out what they think the next steps
>>>>> should be. Then some kind of RFP process to see what people are
>>>>> interested in doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure how something like RFPs would work in a hacker context,
>>>>> do you know of examples of this being done? Perhaps an "X prize" style
>>>>> approach is more appropriate. In either case they would benefit from
>>>>> some kind of evangelism and marketing.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Johnson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Jerry Isdale  
>>>>> <jerry at mauimakers.com> wrote:
>>>>>> This was given in the context of the 100YSS organization.
>>>>>> There are probably a half dozen different non-profit organizations and
>>>>>> groups now pursuing space technology.
>>>>>> To some extent each of these (including our SpaceGAMBIT) does 'control
>>>>>> project goals and funds' which decides what work will be done,  
>>>>>> at least on
>>>>>> their nickel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have a limited amount of funds and your goal is to give  
>>>>>> it to hackers
>>>>>> to further space education and research
>>>>>> how would you decide what work will be done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is a quandary that I face.
>>>>>> Please help us decide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jerry Isdale
>>>>>> isdale at spacegambit.org
>>>>>> USA Program Lead, SpaceGAMBIT
>>>>>> Global Alliance of Makers Building Interstellar Technology
>>>>>> http://SpaceGAMBIT.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This email is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the
>>>>>> human(s) named above. If intercepted by an extraterrestrial  
>>>>>> civilization,
>>>>>> all opinions expressed in this email are my own and do not necessarily
>>>>>> reflect the opinion of mankind as a whole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 22, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting talk, the sliders were pretty funky though. I am sure
>>>>>> there is a lot to be gained by using the best technics in decision
>>>>>> making and project management. That assumes that there is some
>>>>>> organziation or body that controls project goals and funds and that
>>>>>> can decided what work will be done. That does not match with my
>>>>>> understanding of what a hacker space is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Johnson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Jerry Isdale <isdale at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This was the talk at 100YSS Symposium that kicked me off on Quaternion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maxwell Physics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The engineer part of me likes the rigor Buck brings to the  
>>>>>> discussion ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The hacker part of me wants to run screaming naked thru the  
>>>>>> rainforest (my
>>>>>>
>>>>>> backyard).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t95xWsxqNvI
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The discussion of Heaviside-Tate flame war and impact on  
>>>>>> theoretical (and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> applied) physics starts about 12min in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rest of discussion is pretty interesting too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jerry Isdale
>>>>>>
>>>>>> isdale at spacegambit.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> USA Program Lead, SpaceGAMBIT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Global Alliance of Makers Building Interstellar Technology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://SpaceGAMBIT.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This email is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> human(s) named above. If intercepted by an extraterrestrial  
>>>>>> civilization,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all opinions expressed in this email are my own and do not necessarily
>>>>>>
>>>>>> reflect the opinion of mankind as a whole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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