[hackerspaces] Members under 18

Mon Nov 10 05:44:40 CET 2014

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Our hackerspace considered this and we decided to admit members under
18, but with a couple of caveats:

- - Since our membership requires a vote, we all agreed that if someone
is too young to be responsible, we simply don't let them in. We want
to leave open the option of having mature minors, but we aren't going
to just automatically accept kids into our hackerspace.

- - We reserve the right to limit the hours minors have access to the
space. We haven't decided what or when, but we let people know we
might exclude those members if something inappropriate for minors was
going on. (I'm looking at Johannes here.)

- - We'd have a strict requirement for informed parental consent, not
just to become a member, but potentially for additional things that
might be dangerous on down the road. See the problem with minors is
that even if they themselves agree to something or sign something,
they can totally back out if it goes bad, which is why insurance
companies want parental consent. Therefore, it's necessary to get
their parent to make any waiver that a normal member could make for
themselves. (i.e. they assume any risk themselves of dangerous things
going on in the space.)

It's actually kind of a bad idea to say you'll chaperone someone under
18 if you have that informed parental consent. Even if you call the
chaperone a "guardian" they are not actually legally guardians (a
specific legal term of art) unless the parent has given up their
authority permanently and left you in complete control of the child.
Chaperoning doesn't really buy you anything extra and may actually
increase your liability since you're agreeing to look after them.

Christie

On 11/6/14 18:09 , Volatile Compound wrote:
> Speaking from personal experience: I have a relative who was 16
> when he wanted to start attending functions at the local
> hackerspace.  Insurance was a consideration; it didn't cover anyone
> under the age of 18 if unaccompanied by a parent or guardian except
> by signed waiver.
> 
> We went the waiver route, naming a couple of people at the
> hackerspace to act as guardians while he was on property; this was
> in addition to his parents also being named.  It was understood
> amongst everyone involved that no parents or guardians on-site
> meant no attendance, which wasn't an issue in practice, and that
> attendance was based entirely on behaviour while on-site.
> 
> My personal opinion is that if you're old enough to legally drive 
> yourself there, you should be considered capable enough to be
> around laser cutters, power tools, and electronic equipment.
> Granted, there is a maturity factor to be taken into account on a
> case-by-case basis, but this is where waivers can be denied as well
> as issued.
> 
> - skroo.
> 
> On 11/6/14 5:56 PM, charlie wallace wrote:
>> if only every kid was like coco
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Arclight <arclight at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> My experience is that the kids who are "mini adults" and cause
>>> no drama generally have parents who are good people and also
>>> don't make trouble appear. There is probably a cause-and-effect
>>> thing going on I think.
>>> 
>>> Arclight
>>> 
>>> On Nov 6, 2014 4:45 PM, "Don Ankney" <dankney at hackerco.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> You're conflating two questions. The first is the practical
>>>> one about how to go about admitting. The second one is
>>>> whether you really want to. Your opinion is already pretty
>>>> clear:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "We've got some people who are against it because it would
>>>> "ruin" their favorite hangout space, or make them
>>>> uncomfortable in some way."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Setting aside the pejorative overtones of this statement,
>>>> you will likely lose some members over the decision to admit
>>>> kids as members. Just as many adults chose not to become
>>>> parents, many adults don't enjoy hanging out with kids.
>>>> That's okay, and you should recognize that it's a perfectly
>>>> valid preference, and that those folks will likely wander off
>>>> and find new places to invest their time, effort, and money.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This decision represents cultural change. Take it seriously
>>>> and have a real discussion about it rather than writing off
>>>> the "adults-only" faction as whiners. Either decision can be
>>>> positive -- just go into it with an open mind and eyes and
>>>> make sure it's the culture you really want to have.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________ From:
>>>> discuss-bounces+dankney=hackerco.de at lists.hackerspaces.org 
>>>> <discuss-bounces+dankney=hackerco.de at lists.hackerspaces.org>
>>>> on behalf of Bob Bownes <bownes at gmail.com> Sent: Thursday,
>>>> November 6, 2014 4:29 PM To: Hackerspaces General Discussion
>>>> List Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Members under 18
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> At the TVCoG, we require an adult be onsite to be responsible
>>>> for anyone under 18. The kid can be the member, or it can be
>>>> a family membership, but someone has to be responsible for
>>>> them. It's really a matter of state law and age of majority
>>>> for us.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Alan Fay
>>>> <emptyset at freesideatlanta.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here's Freeside's age restrictions policy, for some ideas: 
>>>>> https://wiki.freesideatlanta.org/fs/Policy_AgeRestrictions
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Pete Prodoehl
>>>>> <raster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Our space is currently in a discussion about allowing
>>>>>> people under 18 (16 & 17 year olds) to become members.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We've got some people who are against it because it would
>>>>>> "ruin" their favorite hangout space, or make them
>>>>>> uncomfortable in some way.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We've got some people who are convinced that the
>>>>>> legal/insurance aspects will cause us to lose our
>>>>>> insurance policy and have to shut down.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We have some that think that while we can trust an 18
>>>>>> year old, a 17 year old is in no way to be trusted and
>>>>>> will do completely stupid shit.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We've even discussed specific rules for 16 & 17 year
>>>>>> olds, which would be much more limiting than members 18
>>>>>> or older. (They would need to have a family member as a
>>>>>> member, not be allowed in the space without the family 
>>>>>> member that is a member, etc.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyway, I'm sure there are spaces that allow people under
>>>>>> 18 to be members, or guests that can use equipment, etc.
>>>>>> and I'm looking for real cases especially if you've got
>>>>>> an insurance policy that addresses minors.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pete
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Discuss
>>>>>> mailing list Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org 
>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________ Discuss
>>>>> mailing list Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org 
>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ Discuss
>>>> mailing list Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org 
>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing
>>> list Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org 
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing
>> list Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org 
>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> 
> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing
> list Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org 
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

- -- 
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