[hackerspaces] what is your opinion about the closing of 3rd ward?

Tue Oct 15 00:18:22 CEST 2013

Wow, that guy sounds insane, and probably shouldn't be in charge of
anything.

Sadly, this is pretty typical.  There's a lot of inventors and
entrepreneurs that just don't get what a hackerspace is all about.
 Freeside has its share of people who struggle with the concept, and come
to our space expecting free services ("Can you 3D print me a...") and our
members to work for them for free, to assist them in developing a patent or
a prototype ("I just need to figure out how to...").

If you can manage it, I recommend politely but firmly turn these types of
people away.  One advantage of being in a bigger city is that you can spin
off people to other businesses, organizations, or meetups that are more in
tune with what they're looking for.

(Apologies, this is only applicable to the US, since that's all I know with
respect to hackerspaces/businesses)

Right now, it's tough to secure 501c3 because of the political fallout
earlier in the year, plus the government shutdown now.  Still, that
shouldn't deter you if that's what you want to do.

The corporate structure of your hackerspace depends first on your state,
and then varies wildly based on jurisdiction and what your members want -
but I personally don't really think it's a good idea to structure a
hackerspace as a for-profit business.

Just consider: non-profits are typically exempt from many business taxes,
licenses, etc.  You're also able to apply for grants once you have 501c3.
 You're also possibly protected form liability under volunteer shield laws,
which saves you money on insurance and other business expenses, as long as
you're 100% volunteer run.

On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 5:41 PM, john lunger <justj1915 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> My opinion:
>  We are planning to start a new hackerspace in Hayward, CA.
> I can't tell you how many people kept coming to me to NOT make it a 501c3.
> I am not sure what their issue was but I had to reiterate that it was NOT
> going to be for-profit.
> One guy started yelling at me and saying that I need to make him some head
> chief of marketing or promotions and it has to be some kind of LLC or
> whatever. It was crazy.
>
> Anyways, lots of people just don't get it and see it as a money making
> machine which is not the case. Is it just plain greed?
>
> I am worried in the sense that I hope it never bankrupts us but don;t plan
> to grow big too soon. I want to take things slow and easy and one step at a
> time. I want to be sure that it can be sustainable. Ideas to prevent this?
>
> Carolyn
>
>
>   On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:35 AM, William Macfarlane <
> wmacfarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>  Right, and 3rd Ward's mistake is probably not that they discontinued an
> unsustainable membership practice (obviously unsustainable practices need
> to be discontinued or modified), it's that they did so with little-to-no
> explanation and in a way that alienated many members of their community.
>
> A lot of what a co-working space is selling is community (and 3rd Ward was
> as much co-working space as anything else), so any management decisions
> that are harmful to the sense of community of the space make the product
> less desirable.
>
> Running a co-working space as a business is super-duper hard, and probably
> just a bad idea.  I think it ultimately turns out that there's not a lot of
> money to be made in shared artist/coworking spaces, since your target
> market is poor and self-starting and reasonably able to form their own
> little co-ops that suit their own needs.
>
> Blending co-working, tool-library, and class-running as various kinds of
> ways to make money to keep the space running works better, in part because
> you just get a lot more utility out of your building (different kinds of
> users using it at different times), but also because it makes the space
> feel like one big community.
>
> This is something that Artisan's does well that 3rd Ward (I think) did
> poorly -- the sense that all of the different kinds of users and members
> are variously and legitimately part of the community, and all the parts are
> integrated together.  It's cool to take a class at Artisan's in part
> because the resources are tremendous and the instructors are good, but it's
> at least as important that the class is _in Artisan's_, and when you come
> you get to wander around the space a bit, see lots of fun and interesting
> people, many of whom are your friends and many of whom you wish were your
> friends, making really cool things that you wish you knew how to make.
>
> The "take free classes" "pro" membership at 3rd Ward might have been a
> terrible financial decision, but this sort of option does a few neat
> things.  It creates a membership tier that means "I'm really super-into
> this organization", and does so in a way that creates a sense of
> belonging-and-ownership.  There are some problems with this sense of
> ownership/entitlement, but I think, at core, the informal "this is my
> place" sense is really great and important as long as it's connected with
> "I need to help it keep working."  The other thing that this kind of
> membership does is it encourages long-time community members to take part
> in classes, which are frequently the ways that new people get involved.
>  This is neat because connecting new folks to older folks is the best way
> to help new folks feel welcome!
>
> I wonder whether a "take free classes" membership policy might be
> profitably changed into something that fulfills these goals without being
> an economic disaster.  Something like "if, 1 day before it starts, a class
> isn't full, then a certain tier of member can take it for free" so that
> your free class-takers are neither pushing out payers, nor causing lots of
> extra classes to be run.  This doesn't work for some classes, which will
> always fill up, but maybe that's okay.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Gui Cavalcanti <gui at artisansasylum.com>wrote:
>
> One interesting piece of information that's pertinent to everyone that
> came out of this is that they were offering a membership with unlimited
> classes built into it - and, furthermore, that the removal of this offering
> after several years is one of the things that got everyone in an uproar.
> When the asylum offered an unlimited class pass, the members who used it
> ended up using 2x the price they paid for the pass in a year in payments we
> had to make to teachers - luckily, we kept the experiment small, and it
> didn't cause any serious harm. Given that 3rd Ward and the Asylum were of a
> similar size (programmatically and physically) I can see no possible way
> such a business plan/offering could've worked out in the long run.
>
> Navigate such discounts and deals at your own risk, especially as they
> become standard offerings in your space.
>
> Florencia Edwards <floev22 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Managing  a makerspace or hackerspace is soo hard. I think that this
> happening put the fact out there that its hard and requires subtle work and
> communication. Before this i thought only our makerspace struggled with
> money ,prices ,and how to make everyone welcome but not go bankrupt for not
> charging. This makes me realse we are not alone and that we can learn from
> this mistakes.
> El 13/10/2013 20:33, "William Macfarlane" <wmacfarl at gmail.com> escribió:
>
> Yeah, I guess my question was whether there could be a trick of
> contract-law that resulted in giving membership refunds priority over other
> debts.
>
> I did forget about personal guarantorage, which is a foolish thing to
> forget about since I'm the personal guarantor on the line for my space.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Arclight <arclight at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are a few problems with choosing who to pay if you close down.
> First, it's become common for corporations, including non-profits, to need
> personal guarantors when they sign leases or pretty much do anything these
> days as a startup.
> Not paying the later rent check might leave your "angels" in a big
> financial mess.
> Secondly, if you actually need to declare bankruptcy, you absolutely
> cannot give preferential treatment to anyone. The court decides who will
> get what share and when, regardless of what you think is equitable. If you
> accept a preferential payment, you can be forced to give it back later.
> And I do agree that not having "the money talk" early and often is the
> surest way to fail.
> Arclight
>
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> --
> -Will
> www.partsandcrafts.org
>
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> --
> -Will
> www.partsandcrafts.org
>
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