[hackerspaces] Hackers, feminism, and bullying

rachel lyra hospodar rachelyra at gmail.com
Sat Jan 19 01:35:55 CET 2013

I have to admit that, simply, I read the rest of your message and found it
even less relevant.

I'm not sure what's incivil about this conversation except the way it
always seems to be becoming about some dude's feelings when I thought,
Just for a moment,
Never mind.

Back to the sewing machine. I'll try and write a song about my kyriarchical
state of mind. A blues song, I think.
 On Jan 18, 2013 4:22 PM, "Kevin Mitnick" <kevin.mitnick at outlook.com> wrote:

> Rachel,
> I think that it is rather accusatory of you to think that I am
> generalizing here. You selectively removed my statement that I may be wrong
> on my judgement of your character. Here's the line in question in its
> entirety:
> > Your statement in my mind gives me the perception of you being a bully,
> but being that we're in a virtual space, the words you use may not
> necessarily indicate that you're the person I think you might be.
> You took offense to the use of "bully" and I don't blame you, but I think
> it was rather ill-advised for you to remove the statement that my
> perception of you may be wrong just like how your perception of me could be
> wrong too. I have never met you and as a result do not have any prejudice
> towards you. I think it's rather disingenuous of you to focus on this one
> particular line and then not bother to work with the statements I made
> later on.
> I believe that you'll go a lot further with people if you would avoid a
> kyriarchical state of mind that you seem to be demonstrating on this
> mailing list. How about addressing the important points at hand rather than
> nitpicking on items that are not of importance because this is the reason
> why we cannot engage in proper, civil conversation.
> Kevin Mitnick
> (May or may not be the Kevin you think I am)
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:51:28 -0800
> From: rachelyra at gmail.com
> To: discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Hackers, feminism, and bullying
> Hi kevin, I want to point out that I haven't said 'all', 'most', or
> 'many', or used judgemental adjectives like 'horrible', but simply
> described patterns of behavior that exist and sometimes occur, in the
> context of discussion where they are relevant.
> > >It is difficult to even talk about gender/race/heteronormativity
> because as soon as it comes up, people from the named dominant group panic,
> get defensive, scold the complainers, claim that they are being
> reverse-discriminated.
> >
> > This is akin to me saying that all feminists are "horrible individuals"
> and are "bullies" which is far from the truth. Your statement in my mind
> gives me the perception of you being a bully,
> ...and now somehow we're talking about an exaggerated comparison and false
> generalization you've made, and by extension you, and your feelings,
> instead of continuing direct discussion of the topic at hand.
> Just pointing that out, in the hopes of illuminating yet another rote
> pattern of behavior as well as perhaps continuing to discuss (or
> demonstrate, I guess) ways in which technology spaces can be unwelcoming to
> new ideas while professing openmindedness.
> Now all these words are getting to be too much for my little old brain. I
> guess I'll go back to my sewing.
> R.
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