[hackerspaces] Out with the "hackers"... In with the, "makers" and the "fixers"

Wed Nov 30 02:31:21 CET 2011

I work for a .gov that does open source dev.  TOR was originally a US Navy
funded project.  OpenBSD was at one point almost sorta maybe DARPA funded.

There is a long history of military in Open Source.  In fact what we know
today to be POSIX is really just the natural evolution of DOD standards on
Berkeley BSD.

Go figure.

-Matt

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Mars brown <itcamefrommars at gmail.com>wrote:

>   "Anything you do in the open source or public domain in that field can
> be taken and reused with minimal effort by others for nefarious purpose.  "
>
> SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT!
> I have been thinking the same thing for some time....
> Look at PGP.
> Perfect example... although public domain not OS technically.
>
> But there are ALOT of things that can be worried about regarding open
> source...
> Jaron Laniers book last year "You are not a gadget" is very interesting
> and strongly criticizes open source as "digital maoism"... and in some
> respects I completely agree... but am not getting into his definition
> here... but great read - actually... a very important read to all of us ...
>
> How it relates here tho is that if any state agency plays too strong an
> influence in a global and peaceful movement like HSpaces...
> jeez... honestly it screws up my head enuff thinking about it that I can't
> put the words together sensibly.
>
> Anyhow, anything is available online.  And many of us know that isn't
> limited to 0-day releases of harry potter films.
> We're in a strange time culturally... very strange.  This new fangled
> information superhighway has many exploits for us to surprise each other
> with.
> Like PGP - everyone has the same tools available in contrast to enigma
> machine times.
> Changes the game... but in the same respects does darpa endorse defense
> tech to be developed "open source"?
>
> I'm totally trolling today... sorry.... not making sense at this point.
> Don't hit send..... oops slipped.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Matt Joyce <matt at nycresistor.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to point out that the US is still even in it's reduced capacity
>> putting far more effort into grander ideals such as space exploration than
>> most other nations.  And while you may not equate landing a rover on mars
>> with "the military", I can assure you that any form of space exploration
>> has very definite military applications.  Anything you do in the open
>> source or public domain in that field can be taken and reused with minimal
>> effort by others for nefarious purpose.
>>
>> So, I don't really see the distinction sometimes between "military
>> application" and any other application.  Kind of an extension of guns don't
>> kill people.  People do.
>>
>> "I just put the rockets in the air, I don't care where they come
>> down..."  - Maybe a von braun quote.
>>
>> You can't promote open source development while at the same time
>> pretending that your work can't be co-opted to do things you did not intend
>> it to do.  Possibly things you do not like.  That would be akin to Von
>> Braun telling himself... he just builds rockets to put stuff in the air.
>> If someone else decides to land them in downtown london packed full of
>> C4... well that's on them.  If you hate that...  well shit you and the
>> unibomber have something in common, have you read his manifesto?  Fun read.
>>
>> This ties into the question... "Is knowledge always a good thing".  I
>> think most of us here, would say that the potential for knowledge is always
>> going to be varied.  But I have general faith in my fellow man so I believe
>> that most folks when handed some new knowledge will try to think of
>> something awesome to do with it, rather than... hrmmm... maybe I can use
>> this to destroy puppies.  So I invoke "You can't stop the signal Mal" level
>> 9001.
>>
>> Now yes, some of what DARPA funds is designed specifically to make
>> killing people easier and more efficient.  Sometimes the by-product of that
>> is, less collateral damage.  Sometimes, it's a greater level of
>> belligerence in foreign policy.  Sometimes it's an unpredictable hellish
>> dystopian future.  I am not saying it's okay to support that.  I am not
>> saying that you should ignore that.
>>
>> The reality is, DARPA funds research it is interested in.  If you are
>> interested in it too, and would do it in open source anyways... then I
>> don't see the issue with making that knowledge available to them.  If they
>> are willing to fund your research, then yeah, you have to weigh what the
>> consequences of that are.  That is responsible.  You obviously want to keep
>> true to your own goals and not become a slave to someone elses.   But, if
>> the goals line up... why not?
>>
>> Stopping bullets.  Reducing the damage IEDs cause.  Building a better
>> mine remover.  Any number of emergency medical response / disaster response
>> technologies.  Food preservatives.... etc etc.  These are research areas
>> that could SAVE lives.  Space exploration relies on technology that allows
>> us to put mass into orbit, and mass in orbit alone can be used as a
>> terrifying weapon... that's ignoring the strategic applications of an
>> ICBM.  Does that mean that anyone who works in the field of exploring our
>> universe is some sort of puppy hating monster?  Hell most of them work with
>> the US gov, and most of their work is reviewed and passed on to defense
>> industries for a myriad of reasons.
>>
>> Is something as wonderful as the Hubble or the MSL some sort of taboo
>> technology now?  I say nay.
>>
>> And I want to remind you.  DARPA isn't in the business of killing
>> people.  It's in the business of engineering peace where there is none.
>> War and chaos do not achieve the objectives of DARPA or the US military.
>> Their goal is to END conflict.  They don't start it.  They get tasked to
>> "end it" usually on favorable terms.  You want to equate defense work with
>> "murder" I'd point the finger at the ambassadors, senators, and other
>> political entities that allow war to happen.  Some of them will own that
>> responsibility and some of them will shirk it.  But to place blame on DARPA
>> for it is somewhat absurd.
>>
>> Just some thoughts.
>>
>>       - Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Phillip Rhodes <
>> motley.crue.fan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Mars brown <itcamefrommars at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Oh this DARPA stuff disturbs me on the deepest level.
>>>
>>> Wow, yeah, this is a bit, erm, odd...
>>>
>>> > It's not a big anti-military kind of opinion... so please don't take
>>> it that
>>> > way - but rather I want nothing to directly do with death and
>>> destruction in
>>> > any form for any cause.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Personally, being a libertarian, I would never suggest that any
>>> individual hacker shouldn't be
>>> free to do whatever he/she wants, so long as they're not violating
>>> anyone else's rights...
>>> but I personally *hope* hackers steer clear of helping the US
>>> government and it's
>>> corrupt / evil / corporatist / cronyism-based / empire building /
>>> civil-liberties-robbing
>>> agenda.
>>>
>>> Now working on technologies that have military application in terms of
>>> self-defense; I could
>>> never argue against that.  The use of hacker skills to oppose tyranny,
>>> well... That I could
>>> never criticize.
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
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>>>
>>
>>
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