[hackerspaces] status of this list

druid at stonedcoder.org druid at stonedcoder.org
Thu May 14 23:03:44 CEST 2009

Alright, here's a rough draft, some of the metrics would require a quick 
analysis on a monthly basis of number of unique active email addresses to 
re-evaluate number of people required to respond to different email types 
to form a quorum:

1) these guidelines are designed to be respected and agreed upon by the 
majority, not all, with the assumption not everyone will agree on any 
given set of guidelines

2) the purpose of these guidelines is to provide a way of self moderating 
a vibrant community, which has no formal moderator

3) it is assumed that there is an administrator capable of 
removing/blocking individual email addresses from posting in extreme 

4) the majority agree that there are sometimes threads that are for some 
reason worth filtering from the group discussion

5) the majority agree that the common reasons for this are either 
intentional trolling, attempts to garner favor with the group by an 
individual aka self agrandizement, religious and policitcal issues, gender 
issues portrayed negatively, etc...

6) the majority agree that even after a thread has been deemed worth 

7) when a thread or individual is determined to be in the wrong, any list 
participant may feel free to send a message with the string "SUGGEST 
THREAD MOVE:" prepended to the subject line of the email

8) If 3 or more people second the suggestion by replying with the string 
"seconded" or similar, then the people wishing to participate further in 
the specific thread are expected to move to another forum, either personal 
emails or another list

9) if the topic continues beyond that point, the group will attempt to 
formally identify the instigator who refuses to respect the groups wishes

10) upon formal identification of the instigator, a new thread may be 
created, with the subject line "MOVE TO CENSOR: <email_addy>" where 
email_addy is the address of the instigator identifies in guideline 9

11) If 8 people approve move to censor, then the administrators will be 
asked to remove the individuals email address from the list subscription

12) it is recognized that the individual is free to join with a new email 
address, and is welcome to do so, hopefully with a more community oriented 

13) in the case of extreme instigation (trolling) by an individual, the 
list administrator will be asked to temporarily make the list require 
admin approal for new users to join, until an appropriate period not 
exceeding 2 weeks has passed

14) in the case of claimed subjugation of an individuals account by a 
third party trolling as the individual, the administrators may be asked to 
allow an email address formally removed from list membership be allowed to 
be re-added, this will require some reasonable proof the individuals email 
address was subjugated



On Thu, 14 May 2009, Matt Joyce wrote:

> I would encourage eric to bring forth his talking points.  If he's put a
> great deal of thought into this maybe he can start us off.
>  I have some immediate concerns that I've already mentioned.  No ad hominem
> attacks.  Which means you can't detract weight from another persons argument
> based upon personal attacks or attacks concerning their situation and
> background.  Another good one to be weay of is straw man attacks.  Using non
> relevant arguments to bolster ones own arguments.
>  A few examples:
>  "Your points on moderations are void because you sent a troll email!"
>  Could be seen as a straw man argument.
>  "Your hackerspace is new or smaller than ours and therefore of lesser
> importance.  Thus your argument is weaker!"
>  Situational Ad Hominem attack
>  "I am immediately discounting your opinion because I believe you have not
> thought about the topic enough."
>  Blind ignorance.
>  "Childish bullshit!"
>  Maybe using curse words and other derrogatory language should be
> disallowed
>  "I am king of the hackerspaces!"
>   Maybe absurd troll emails should not be allowed.
>  "You said germany was the size of ohio and are therefore wrong in your
> anti-political stance!"
>   Ad-hominem attack.
>   "Politics is an integral part of hackerspaces."
>   Be accepting of other viewpoints than your own.  Don't assume yourself to
> be correct.
> Just a few examples and ideas.
> Regards,
>   Matt
> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Paul Böhm <paul at boehm.org> wrote:
>>> We agree on a list of rulese to abide by.
>> can you give specific examples, or even draft such a full proposal?
>> i have a hard time thinking about this while it is so vague!
>> paul
>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Matt Joyce <mdjoyce at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's not the topic of discussion that's a problem it's the method of
>>> discussion.  THUS the call for a form of moderation.  One form is to kill
>>> trouble topics.  I am not a fan of that approach but it is a method of
>>> moderation.  Another method of moderation is the enforcement of
>> discussion
>>> etiquette.  Or netiquette.  Or debate / discussion rules.  Or "be
>> excellent
>>> to each other" rules.
>>> We agree on a list of rulese to abide by.  Then we moderate people who
>>> violate the rules and admit their emails on a case by case basis until
>> such
>>> time as they stop with the violation of those rules of etiquette.
>>> Does that make sense?
>>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Paul Böhm <paul at boehm.org> wrote:
>>>> Ok, so what should we discuss on this list other than what has been
>>>> discussed?
>>>> Specifically?
>>>> Also how would you moderate a list without an impartial moderator?
>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Matt Joyce <mdjoyce at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>    Failure to protect discussion on this list is in no way a solution
>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>> problem at hand.  You are in effect choosing to forsake discussion on
>>>>> the
>>>>> discussion list entirely in favor of something else ( Re Ad hominem
>>>>> attacks,
>>>>> Fallacy, and other "Childish Bullshit").  I would like you to take
>> your
>>>>> other thing elsewhere and free up the discussion list for actual
>>>>> discussion.  Calling this list "Discussion" in light of a complete
>> break
>>>>> from the commonly held definitions of discussion is deceptive.  And
>>>>> inviting
>>>>> people to hold discussions anywhere but the discussion list is absurd.
>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>    Matt Joyce
>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Paul Böhm <paul at boehm.org> wrote:
>>>>>> hello from your friendly list creator,
>>>>>> at the moment the meta-discussion mails about moderation/killing the
>>>>>> thread/etc. have exceeded the mails about the actual subject roughly
>>>>>> by a factor of two.
>>>>>> killing off discussions you don't like solves the problem for you,
>> but
>>>>>> does not help others who feel the need to discuss certain subjects.
>>>>>> there's a backlash because of that.
>>>>>> hopefully the discussion will wind down after a bit, but we still
>>>>>> won't all agree at that point.
>>>>>> however, seeing that we're different from each other is valuable all
>> by
>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>> in any case, this list won't become moderated since we won't be able
>>>>>> to find an impartial moderator.
>>>>>> if you want your own list on hackerspaces.org, we'd be very happy to
>>>>>> create one for you.
>>>>>> paul
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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