No subject
Wed May 13 13:38:05 CEST 2009
Discussion -
*1. * Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
*2. * A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.
The key is the second definition. Formal discourse. This is where the
rules of debate come into play. In fact looking up discussion on wikipedia
forwards to debate. The reason for this is simple. Without some rules in
play for how people are supposed to communicate their ideas and without a
moderator to enforce those rules it will become impossible for "earnest
conversation" to continue.
3ric has already given up on this list. And that is a loss we all will
continue to feel. If we are unable to achieve actual discussion on this
list, I too will leave as will others. So in effect no matter your own
opinions on the subject of moderation, doing nothing will serve to deprive
you of content just as well as moderation will. What is ultimately the
question here for me is. Is this a discussion list? If it is not I'll stop
wasting all of our time and leave. I have no desire to be involved in this
any further than I already have been. I have devoted entirely too much time
to this list in the past few days and I feel as though I have gained
absolutely nothing of value from it.
Now, if this is a discussion list, then maybe we should begin to enforce a
formal discourse, or at least lay out some ground rules to facilitate our
conversation. It is plain to see we all don't adhere to the same levels of
discipline in our choice of communication, and our varied backgrounds leave
us very much at a loss when communicating our ideas. This can be
addressed. We are intelligent people and we can come to an arrangement that
makes discussion possible. Already there is movement in this area. Eric's
discussion regarding "netiquette" is very much in line with this. I will
for one final time urge you to consider keeping this a discussion list.
Regards,
Matt Joyce
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 4:47 AM, webmind <webmind at puscii.nl> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Matt Joyce wrote:
> > The problem isn't with theory or discussion. It's with people who
> > don't understand how to formulate arguments and present them in a
> > fashion that is courteous and respectful to all. During the
> > conversation regarding the article Johannes published there was a sudden
> > surge of ad hominem attacks and general fallacy. What's worse is that
> > no moderator stepped in to silence the deluge of crap mails.
> > Discussions are generally moderated and a certain level of decorum is
> > expected of all involved. While I don't expect debate rules and clear
> > adherence to the rules of logic, I do expect people to at least treat
> > people as they themselves expect to be treated.
>
> It still means that you want someone else to moderate for you. I do
> believe in the peer2peer approach, something that can actually work
> online vs offline. Filtering/moderation should work at the end point,
> because in the end, no one can decide for you. Well I don't think they
> should anyway.
>
> btw, I don't think pasting mails with trolls, no matter how funny, is
> either courteous or respectful to anyone.
>
> Although I don't think any hacker should or would have the experience
> with heavy online discussions (not all hackers have a long digital
> history). I do think it's important that people think for themselves and
> are able to judge and filter for themselves. If reading through crap is
> a skill you don't have, I'd say you either learn it or find someone to
> filter for you, but don't force a filter/moderator on everyone else.
>
> W.
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJKC9qvAAoJEOI9Fu788VSuuGgP/j3Se+jlqiTQCM2OPsGmu6L3
> inxBzUXllf7Mf55agnGtL4TiwIPaImqObpZ6+MziDtG9xMropX+WCx71+7pu1yr1
> WGjNermJp9QLsmGru4DYvEr36XHCRM5lU2p0CiG4gsRxWA3GLFen4jfCJyT0Ahog
> cDsBCf1x9QnIZjXsnxMDVGA9AmPKcUT2bB2KeC2PpZU2ApRMX5coWBXcY5gZgww5
> IJkyVvq30+zsoPj11yB7CBb9ZMbxPZIBcOm5PR1t2jQvf7hroDqmiaOtGudnbV7Z
> LcToAvbjnLu1YAByI79bmANkfxpF8dEPAj1cTji3ntfc14rm9VXZEslnwfsx3Jrm
> R4qV3mQE/8LOX/qmdD9CwpJCEcBhASwzJGLeQt0WwrWGm6ANDyIepYCzbLs7ASEl
> YbXh6xDiVLh/8oi2kIjSBg5khvOT66k7ps/844W5Brda2v5D/M4PR7dTY0Y94eCm
> P0jyJU9E0/ACcW4M1GhuicD1LDWT4EOYf4MMPmD6Sfix6d1EYdZScZ/3xGI7Z/S7
> fC4PgX4a/r+CDiY8BqyVB1rrPnhycCZWCl9KeCQafmIYj9yQUO2Ua6ING63buAAc
> YryiHZlybfV0z+zaCbByS3XX6NLx8Kf+YU2X4Xd3i6yyle9gvF3tMxb7X5HYgBfT
> eEiBFjRH4MOKDU3jzh6b
> =J/5r
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJKC85kAAoJEOI9Fu788VSuuccQAKkCBicuahBy3rzaNubQOkCx
> gYG3nRun8kFAMYzRyQWZH2eQW2FyqvhYevRZljlC4R/YoGre8gEYjM31OMvfIkEb
> mYgc67eLQGkxYWYkKglcQdg1Wrjpalx01VzjOXTdxw3WYnkoNV6oejtpAVjCfjoq
> cX3megBDO11Jim5RKShzDigldo0LAyK8ijNQQ2xHTGFdJODqRtXBQ/HUURIAe+pW
> YJJgfWSy+e2HrmrnAYO265pJwX6g0VluoxScq8KGoruUTJA+0QAWadD66c2I9WaM
> L/fpyUc8r5GFTR5R7w5TgUifL9Sz+C20bIThdY0ArFDPJw2hTui3+aT025/kTTuM
> NI+9AF3SjBo/2u4uMwsAZgL8fxyfl+gXf/0S+wGsw9yeLkbgUN2P/zfBdrXpV+ML
> MwHspujTPy39PCvnVraSyz3g0Ks5Kfmg8OwakGL54AWifXWkcrQ6bBKDKOua/+32
> zemJBHLr/TJNPpM5tU0VCnAlHyD0nVJ4NtBWc2hTAFEjUWxSHGs0mHwLxfwWUnoL
> trg9TS05Nl1Z1w0WnIoIR6t4bLGpmLccvu3iExkKIYrrlNUtxrkLEf/F1f3/ZFtg
> U9NcwEO8WJ+bjn5BRznT8MURZr6yHKR8cwxm6BpExRBxMCfX5S+J80+0sEdhDP3P
> KOux6fpxqru+AQruXM9Y
> =lwBG
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
--000325553c92f20bdb0469e32810
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well I think what it comes down to is a simple misunderstanding of the defi=
nition of discussion.=A0 One definition of discussion implies moderation.=
=A0 <br><br>From X random dictionary:<br><br>Discussion -<br><br><div class=
=3D"ds-list">
<b>1. </b> Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.<=
/div><div class=3D"ds-list"><b>2. </b> A formal discourse on a topic; an ex=
position.<br><br>The key is the second definition.=A0 Formal discourse.=A0 =
This is where the rules of debate come into play.=A0 In fact looking up dis=
cussion on wikipedia forwards to debate.=A0 The reason for this is simple.=
=A0 Without some rules in play for how people are supposed to communicate t=
heir ideas and without a moderator to enforce those rules it will become im=
possible for "earnest conversation" to continue.<br>
<br>3ric has already given up on this list.=A0 And that is a loss we all wi=
ll continue to feel.=A0 If we are unable to achieve actual discussion on th=
is list, I too will leave as will others.=A0 So in effect no matter your ow=
n opinions on the subject of moderation, doing nothing will serve to depriv=
e you of content just as well as moderation will.=A0 What is ultimately the=
question here for me is.=A0 Is this a discussion list?=A0 If it is not I&#=
39;ll stop wasting all of our time and leave.=A0 I have no desire to be inv=
olved in this any further than I already have been.=A0 I have devoted entir=
ely too much time to this list in the past few days and I feel as though I =
have gained absolutely nothing of value from it.=A0 <br>
<br>Now, if this is a discussion list, then maybe we should begin to enforc=
e a formal discourse, or at least lay out some ground rules to facilitate o=
ur conversation.=A0 It is plain to see we all don't adhere to the same =
levels of discipline in our choice of communication, and our varied backgro=
unds leave us very much at a loss when communicating our ideas.=A0 This can=
be addressed.=A0 We are intelligent people and we can come to an arrangeme=
nt that makes discussion possible.=A0 Already there is movement in this are=
a.=A0 Eric's discussion regarding "netiquette" is very much i=
n line with this.=A0 I will for one final time urge you to consider keeping=
this a discussion list.<br>
<br>Regards,<br><br>=A0=A0 Matt Joyce<br><br><br><br><br></div><br><br><div=
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 4:47 AM, webmind <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:webmind at puscii.nl">webmind at puscii.nl</a>>=
</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"im"=
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">Matt Joyce wrote:<br>
> =A0 The problem isn't with theory or discussion. =A0It's with =
people who<br>
> don't understand how to formulate arguments and present them in a<=
br>
> fashion that is courteous and respectful to all. =A0During the<br>
> conversation regarding the article Johannes published there was a sudd=
en<br>
> surge of ad hominem attacks and general fallacy. =A0What's worse i=
s that<br>
> no moderator stepped in to silence the deluge of crap mails.<br>
> Discussions are generally moderated and a certain level of decorum is<=
br>
> expected of all involved. =A0While I don't expect debate rules and=
clear<br>
> adherence to the rules of logic, I do expect people to at least treat<=
br>
> people as they themselves expect to be treated.<br>
<br>
</div>It still means that you want someone else to moderate for you. I do<b=
r>
believe in the peer2peer approach, something that can actually work<br>
online vs offline. Filtering/moderation should work at the end point,<br>
because in the end, no one can decide for you. Well I don't think they<=
br>
should anyway.<br>
<br>
btw, I don't think pasting mails with trolls, no matter how funny, is<b=
r>
either courteous or respectful to anyone.<br>
<br>
Although I don't think any hacker should or would have the experience<b=
r>
with heavy online discussions (not all hackers have a long digital<br>
history). I do think it's important that people think for themselves an=
d<br>
are able to judge and filter for themselves. If reading through crap is<br>
a skill you don't have, I'd say you either learn it or find someone=
to<br>
filter for you, but don't force a filter/moderator on everyone else.<br=
>
<br>
W.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - <a href=3D"http=
://enigmail.mozdev.org" target=3D"_blank">http://enigmail.mozdev.org</a><br=
>
<br>
</div>iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJKC9qvAAoJEOI9Fu788VSuuGgP/j3Se+jlqiTQCM2OPsGmu6L3<br>
inxBzUXllf7Mf55agnGtL4TiwIPaImqObpZ6+MziDtG9xMropX+WCx71+7pu1yr1<br>
WGjNermJp9QLsmGru4DYvEr36XHCRM5lU2p0CiG4gsRxWA3GLFen4jfCJyT0Ahog<br>
cDsBCf1x9QnIZjXsnxMDVGA9AmPKcUT2bB2KeC2PpZU2ApRMX5coWBXcY5gZgww5<br>
IJkyVvq30+zsoPj11yB7CBb9ZMbxPZIBcOm5PR1t2jQvf7hroDqmiaOtGudnbV7Z<br>
LcToAvbjnLu1YAByI79bmANkfxpF8dEPAj1cTji3ntfc14rm9VXZEslnwfsx3Jrm<br>
R4qV3mQE/8LOX/qmdD9CwpJCEcBhASwzJGLeQt0WwrWGm6ANDyIepYCzbLs7ASEl<br>
YbXh6xDiVLh/8oi2kIjSBg5khvOT66k7ps/844W5Brda2v5D/M4PR7dTY0Y94eCm<br>
P0jyJU9E0/ACcW4M1GhuicD1LDWT4EOYf4MMPmD6Sfix6d1EYdZScZ/3xGI7Z/S7<br>
fC4PgX4a/r+CDiY8BqyVB1rrPnhycCZWCl9KeCQafmIYj9yQUO2Ua6ING63buAAc<br>
YryiHZlybfV0z+zaCbByS3XX6NLx8Kf+YU2X4Xd3i6yyle9gvF3tMxb7X5HYgBfT<br>
eEiBFjRH4MOKDU3jzh6b<br>
=3DJ/5r<br>
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
<br>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)<br>
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - <a href=3D"http://enigmail.mozdev.org" =
target=3D"_blank">http://enigmail.mozdev.org</a><br>
<br>
iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJKC85kAAoJEOI9Fu788VSuuccQAKkCBicuahBy3rzaNubQOkCx<br>
gYG3nRun8kFAMYzRyQWZH2eQW2FyqvhYevRZljlC4R/YoGre8gEYjM31OMvfIkEb<br>
mYgc67eLQGkxYWYkKglcQdg1Wrjpalx01VzjOXTdxw3WYnkoNV6oejtpAVjCfjoq<br>
cX3megBDO11Jim5RKShzDigldo0LAyK8ijNQQ2xHTGFdJODqRtXBQ/HUURIAe+pW<br>
YJJgfWSy+e2HrmrnAYO265pJwX6g0VluoxScq8KGoruUTJA+0QAWadD66c2I9WaM<br>
L/fpyUc8r5GFTR5R7w5TgUifL9Sz+C20bIThdY0ArFDPJw2hTui3+aT025/kTTuM<br>
NI+9AF3SjBo/2u4uMwsAZgL8fxyfl+gXf/0S+wGsw9yeLkbgUN2P/zfBdrXpV+ML<br>
MwHspujTPy39PCvnVraSyz3g0Ks5Kfmg8OwakGL54AWifXWkcrQ6bBKDKOua/+32<br>
zemJBHLr/TJNPpM5tU0VCnAlHyD0nVJ4NtBWc2hTAFEjUWxSHGs0mHwLxfwWUnoL<br>
trg9TS05Nl1Z1w0WnIoIR6t4bLGpmLccvu3iExkKIYrrlNUtxrkLEf/F1f3/ZFtg<br>
U9NcwEO8WJ+bjn5BRznT8MURZr6yHKR8cwxm6BpExRBxMCfX5S+J80+0sEdhDP3P<br>
KOux6fpxqru+AQruXM9Y<br>
=3DlwBG<br>
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss at lists.hackerspace=
s.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target=
=3D"_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
--000325553c92f20bdb0469e32810--
More information about the Discuss
mailing list