[hackerspaces] Kids and Hackerspaces

[Rose White]

Hi Aldert, others --

How exciting that there is a Family Village at HAR! I've seen on the
Toorcamp list that kids are also welcome with their parents/guardians.

I'm part of NYCR, and Matt did a terrific job of summarizing the
issues that came up in the discussion that day.

The response from CJP replying to those issues was definitely helpful
for providing another point of view, but I am especially interested in
hearing from other spaces that do (or do not) allow children in their
spaces, and how they handle this issue. We at NYCR would love to have
more concrete examples to consider as we come up with our group
policy. For this purpose, I'd even like to hear both US and non-US
examples, just so that we have as wide a range of opinions on the
topic as possible.

After all, the reason why we imposed a moratorium on our
group-discussion was so that a subset of us could go off and think
hard about how to handle this.

Cheers --

-- Rose/yarnivore

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Aldert Hazenberg <aldert at rotz.org> wrote:
>
> I must say that somehow I see the us-centric-legal-focus
> always/often stifling any discussion/argument/activity.
>
> But then again I do not have kids and in this instance
> the legal focus seems te be very much justified...
>
> Aldert.
>
>
> On May 11, 2009, at 10:08 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:
>
>> Here's the list of concerns we at NYCR voiced during one of our
>> longest internal meetings ever.
>>
>> We had a HUGE debate that lasted probably close to two hours ( or at
>> least it felt that way ) ultimately we decided to shelve the issue
>> for six months and seek some real legal advice on the issue.  In the
>> interim no kids allowed.  One 13 year old kid Jonas actually emailed
>> the contact list several times to discuss his desire to be allowed
>> in the space and how he thought it was unfair he was being banned
>> through no fault of his own.  Hard to argue with him.
>>
>> 1.  There's a difference between a members kids... and a non members
>> kids.
>>
>> 2.  What happens in the horrific likelihood a kid gets injured?
>>
>> 3.  Our space is in no way child proofed.  In fact it's pretty
>> unsafe even for adults if you don't know to not touch stuff you
>> don't understand.
>>
>> 4.  Re-engineering the space to be child safe in and of itself is a
>> huge effort for us at this point.
>>
>> 5.  What we've come to realize in public events is that we can't
>> trust parents to mind their kids.  Sometimes the parents are there
>> to geek out and their kids are just running around putting
>> themselves in jeopardy.
>>
>> 6.  Even with disclaimers and signed away rights to sue us... if a
>> child is injured, we WILL get sued.  And, we WILL lose.  Because
>> that's what functionally happens when a kid is injured.
>>
>> 7.  We don't currently have events that are geared towards kids.
>>
>> Some of the possible solutions that have been proposed...
>>
>> 1.  Make use of alternative venues such as the public library.  Host
>> children geared events through them.
>>
>> 2.  Make use of umbrella organizations... like sponsoring a first
>> team.  If a kid is injured... first will get sued and has the money
>> and size to handle that sort of thing.
>>
>> 3.  Talk to a lawyer.
>>
>> Love to hear what else you guys have to say.
>>
>>  - Matt
>>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Dave Null <noid23 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Aldert Hazenberg <aldert at rotz.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On May 11, 2009, at 9:45 PM, 3ric Johanson wrote:
>> >
>> >> A topic which I would love to raise at some point in the near
>> future
>> >> - -
>> >> 'children in hackerspaces'.
>> >
>> > Do not eat them.
>> >
>> > Aldert.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Aldert J.B.P. Hazenberg
>> > Email   : aldert at rotz.org
>> > Phone   : voip/skype on request
>> > IM      : several on request
>> >
>> > The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds
>> new
>> > discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
>> >
>> >     -- Isaac Asimov (1920-1992)
>> >
>> > The fundamental problems in IT security are no longer about
>> technology.
>> >
>> >     -- Bruce Schneier
>> >
>>
>> Yes, don't eat them. They have small bones and that makes them hard
>> to clean.
>>
>> In the case of our space, one of our members, and several of our
>> friends have kids. The basic things parents need to explain to their
>> kids before coming over is something they should already be doing,
>> teach their kids not to touch things without permission and that
>> there's..um..certain words that grown ups can use that kids can't.
>>
>> We keep the hand tools locked up for security reasons already and that
>> goes a long way from enabling little Jimmy from getting his hands on a
>> sawzall. He also knows not to climb on things or unplug anything, no
>> matter how brightly colored the cable is.
>>
>> When there are kids around we do our best to keep things PG rated as
>> well.
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>
>
>
> Aldert.
>
> --
>
> Aldert J.B.P. Hazenberg
> Email   : aldert at rotz.org
> Phone   : voip/skype on request
> IM      : several on request
>
> The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
> discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
>
>     -- Isaac Asimov (1920-1992)
>
> The fundamental problems in IT security are no longer about technology.
>
>     -- Bruce Schneier
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>