[SpaceProgram] Request: accountability frameworks for makerspace governance?

Mon May 30 09:24:50 CEST 2016

Believe it or not, back in the first uproar over SpaceGAMBIT budgeting, I
even /defended/ spending more money on overhead than on the grants -- IF
that's what would lead toward more project success. Implied in that
defense, however: enough transparency for anyone to see that the costs were
in line with grant-making operations of similar scale and geographic and
technological scope. Then the transparency didn't materialize. Then I got
suspicious.

Regards,
Michael Turner
Executive Director
Project Persephone
K-1 bldg 3F
7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
turner at projectpersephone.org
http://www.projectpersephone.org/

"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Paul Szymkowiak <paulszym at gmail.com> wrote:

> Notwithstanding possible overstating of the details, I think Cole raises
> an important point, and it's a key lesson to take forward. So being clearer
> about what actually transpired will be helpful insight.
>
> On 28 May 2016 at 16:31, Michael Turner <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>
>>
>> Cole: "The reporting requirements exceeded the value of the contract by
>> an order of magnitude."
>>
>> "Order of magnitude" = 10x. You're saying it would have cost $5 million
>> to meet the costs of the requirements reporting for spending $500,000?
>>
>>
> Even recasting this as "The reporting requirements exceeded the value of
> the funds being awarded by Space GAMBIT to successful project submissions by
> an order of magnitude." I believe would over state the reality of the
> expenses.
>
> My suspicion is that the reality is more likely "The reporting
> requirements exceeded the budgeted amount for reporting assistance expenses
> by an order of magnitude."
>
> I can't recall what our budgeted amount was, but I'd accept that the
> budget may have been significantly less than what was actually required,
> and this would obviously have impacted the money that could be distributed
> to successful projects.
>
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Szymkowiak
>
>
> On 28 May 2016 at 16:31, Michael Turner <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Every iota of every fund was tracked."
>>
>> Really?  So that satellite simulator software project -- somewhere, there
>> are timesheets with hours logged, for the $20,000 open-source project with
>> no code checked in anywhere I can find?
>>
>> "The reporting requirements exceeded the value of the contract by an
>> order of magnitude."
>>
>> "Order of magnitude" = 10x. You're saying it would have cost $5 million
>> to meet the costs of the requirements reporting for spending $500,000?
>>
>> "I didn't have the balls to quit my job to run it."
>>
>> At various times, you've told us that you did all the work, that Jerry
>> ended up with all of it, that you finally gave it all to an unnamed friend
>> who used to work at DARPA (hm, we have to add revolving doors to our
>> suspicions?)
>>
>> I see spreadsheets shared to me that had 4 full-time-equivalent salaries
>> budgeted. $16,000 per month for those. As someone who has been his own main
>> donor, and who has funded it all out of a day job, and has only able to eke
>> out a bit of progress now and then, I'd probably strangle my own mother to
>> have a situation where I'd have that much freedom to allocate that much
>> money, while on salary for two years.
>>
>> "Jerry felt like he had liability so he saw making decisions with no
>> group input as necessary to his financial well being."
>>
>> Very interesting way to put it. And how is his financial well-being these
>> days? Any nice new equipment at Maui Makers? Any investments in Maui
>> beachfront property?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Michael Turner
>> Executive Director
>> Project Persephone
>> K-1 bldg 3F
>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>
>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
>> together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>
>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 12:28 PM, cole santos <cksantos85 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Every iota of every fund was tracked. Im sure some accountant has it
>>> somewhere. Its why i didn't get all our projects funding(most didnt). The
>>> reporting requirements exceeded the value of the contract by an order of
>>> magnitude. In almost all cases each project bit off more than it could chew
>>> with funds avail. On the admin side, I got this grant funded under a
>>> friends lcc because no one else could get it done. I didn't have the balls
>>> to quit my job to run it. So I pushed it on the founder of our local
>>> makerspace. For better or worse he didnt really want to do it, saw it as a
>>> burdensome thing. Because of that they did not spend the money to create a
>>> lasting program. The whole thing was very complicated in the beginning, but
>>> once the contract was awarded to a sole proprietorship, the mojo flew out
>>> the door. Jerry felt like he had liability so he saw making decisions with
>>> no group input as necessary to his financial well being. Most likely scared
>>> of being sued by disgruntled makers who complain alot...
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Turner <
>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "I don't necessarily subscribe to Michael's statement "every iota of
>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>> be recorded"."
>>>>
>>>> Let me be literal: "Can be" is not "will be" or "must be". It's just
>>>> the capability. Used to the degree that's called for.
>>>>
>>>> And here's what that literal requirement came out of, more so than the
>>>> SpaceGAMBIT debacle: going to Kenya on a mission to set up a hacking-themed
>>>> non-profit. You know, Kenya? Where corruption is a way of life? The high
>>>> life, for the big winners of that game?
>>>>
>>>> I went to Kenya with an idea in mind: femtosatellites that can now be
>>>> built for around $100 in parts cost could be great educational tools for
>>>> getting kids excited about "bare-metal programming", instrumentation and
>>>> electronics generally. With only ~$10,000, I might supply 100 East African
>>>> schools with an actual spacecraft. (Stretching the definition of spacecraft
>>>> a little.) I even brought along a KickSat Sprite development kit to
>>>> demonstrate to people. I had plans to make 20 more kits back home, kits I'd
>>>> need put together myself, for $2,000 in fab costs and parts.
>>>>
>>>> But I also went to dip a toe in the water. What would it really be
>>>> like, trying to do that? I didn't want it to be one-time-only. I didn't
>>>> want it to be fire-and-forget. I wanted to build an organization there. I
>>>> had longer-term goals, going beyond these femtosats. And that meant
>>>> figuring out how to keep the money coming.
>>>>
>>>> Before I went, I spoke about my plans with a guy here in Tokyo who'd
>>>> been to Kenya several times in search of organizations to fund -- and in
>>>> particular, to learn how to responsibly spend the donations he was
>>>> collecting from members of his Tokyo society. I told him what I wanted to
>>>> do. He just looked at me, furrowed his brow, and said nothing.
>>>>
>>>> I came back from Kenya with quite a few stories. I told him these
>>>> stories. He nodded. He said, "I met with over 100 non-profits and
>>>> community-based organizations in Kenya. I found only five I felt I could
>>>> trust."
>>>>
>>>> This was demoralizing -- so far beyond my own merely-anecdotal evidence
>>>> that I couldn't deny what the major challenge was: becoming tightfisted,
>>>> suspicious, and controlling. It's not my nature. But I am software
>>>> engineer. (Or was.) Could it be automated to any degree?
>>>>
>>>> And there was hope, suddenly: I exchanged email with a Kenyan database
>>>> analyst and admin who'd done work for such organizations. She said the ones
>>>> that managed to not piss off and alienate donors -- the ones that could
>>>> survive and execute on a strategy that amounted to more than just finding
>>>> yet another one of those donors that's born every minute -- were the ones
>>>> that installed down-to-the-penny accounting systems and
>>>> down-to-the-half-hour accountability frameworks.
>>>>
>>>> I want a framework that CAN scale down to the resolution of a penny
>>>> because, in places where pennies matter, there are always people who will
>>>> try to rob you of them. And if you lose a significant amount of money to
>>>> internal corruption, enough to think of taking the theft to court, well,
>>>> good luck with that. Because then you're up against /external/ corruption.
>>>> The judge is always the thief's nephew's best friend's father-in-law's
>>>> uncle, or else can be had for a bribe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Michael Turner
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> Project Persephone
>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>
>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward
>>>> together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Paul Szymkowiak <paulszym at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Having been involved in the "hackerspace space program" and the
>>>>> subsequent "Space GAMBIT" projects being discussed here from the beginning,
>>>>> and also having been a moderator for previous interactions Michael Turner
>>>>> has had on mailing lists associated with these efforts, I'd like to add a
>>>>> few comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam, I have also worked with a number of philanthropist groups, and I
>>>>> agree it is possible - for certain types of projects in certain contexts -
>>>>> to remain focused on an outcome and operate predominantly on trust.
>>>>> However, I would argue that this often relies on existing organisational
>>>>> structures and constitutions, either implicit or explicit, and that scaling
>>>>> this is possible but often problematic (in my experience, most cases fail).
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of Space GAMBIT, we attempted to form a globally operating
>>>>> entity (or network of) based on a significant founding grant under a highly
>>>>> regulated set of industry rules and regulations. I think that makes this
>>>>> context significantly different and the associated problems much more
>>>>> wicked. If we're to contemplate further space-program efforts within the
>>>>> global maker & hacker hobbyist communities, we need to learn from the
>>>>> mistakes made here and find a better way forward.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Michael's request to discuss accountability frameworks is a
>>>>> completely reasonable proposal, and in light of the serious failings in the
>>>>> execution of the Space GAMBIT effort, completely justified. In the past,
>>>>> I've critiqued Michael for personal attacks, but I'm not seeing that in
>>>>> this case: I'm seeing what I consider quite reasonable critique: and given
>>>>> that I'm one of the people that critique is directed at, I welcome it.
>>>>>
>>>>> From my perspective, Michael's request is an important and valid one
>>>>> in the light of Space GAMBIT, and so-far I haven't seen anything in the way
>>>>> of constructive response. Does that mean that no such accountability
>>>>> framework(s) exist in the hacker/ maker community, and that we're all
>>>>> operating on systems based on good will, trust and personal integrity?
>>>>>
>>>>> If not, I'd welcome folks sharing their experiences with suitable
>>>>> frameworks they've found workable. If so, I'd echo Michael's concern that
>>>>> when donors are contributing significant funds, good will, trust and
>>>>> personal integrity aren't enough to support such endeavours, and in the
>>>>> case of Space GAMBIT, failed horribly. It's completely justifiable and I
>>>>> think helpful, to look back on the mistake, critique it and learn from it
>>>>> so that we can avoid making it again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't necessarily subscribe to Michael's statement "every iota of
>>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>>> be recorded". There are various ways in which "every iota" and "every
>>>>> penny" might be problematic, however I think the general idea of tracking
>>>>> spending, revenue, effort, assets (including intellectual property) is
>>>>> completely reasonable - in fact, needed - and there should be ways to do
>>>>> this transparently and simply as a natural part of doing work on the
>>>>> project.
>>>>>
>>>>> In some ways, we're looking at how open communities can operate in a
>>>>> way true to our ethics and principles, within required legislative
>>>>> structures that are arguably based on dated western ideals of
>>>>> organisations/ legal entities. We need supporting structures and systems
>>>>> that allow us to operate legally and with manageable risk within the
>>>>> existing overarching system(s).
>>>>>
>>>>> If anything, Michael has been somewhat charitable in his critique.
>>>>> When Michael says "the dodge took the form of locating all authority
>>>>> over spending that $500,000 in a tiny handful of people who operated in a
>>>>> pretty opaque fashion", it would be more accurate to say that, once the
>>>>> funding landed, "in the hands of a single person".
>>>>>
>>>>> That was never the intention of the project, went against everything
>>>>> the group had specifically worked hard on over many months on the
>>>>> grant application, and ultimately destroyed the global collaborative nature
>>>>> of the project. Once that occurred, there seemed to be no way back
>>>>> from that fatal mistake, and that cast the actions of the individual
>>>>> involved in an increasingly negative light. It was easy to paint a picture
>>>>> alleging corruption, although I suspect it was predominantly a mix of
>>>>> overbearing control-freak personality and personal financial fear.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an important community failure that I for one am keen to learn
>>>>> from, never repeat, and find better ways of undertaking in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Szymkowiak
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27 May 2016 at 08:43, Sam Tobin <sam.tobin at nrsnz.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Diminishing return guys/girls...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've worked on large ESA projects with massive overheads and
>>>>>> scrutiny, and on tiny garage-based projects. Accountability, workplans etc
>>>>>> are tools... and as always one needs the right tools for the task at hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've also worked for a philanthropist group, and (might be unique,
>>>>>> but maybe not)... they were mostly interested in outcomes, not details.
>>>>>> Simply put, the approach was to trust the person/group, check outcomes,
>>>>>> repeat with person/group at larger $ scale if good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27 May 2016 at 05:08, Michael Turner <
>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure that's been your experience, Matt. Subjectively, it has
>>>>>>> also been mine. I've chafed under accountability frameworks in almost every
>>>>>>> organization I've ever been in. They've always felt like a "massive,
>>>>>>> worthless drain."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's the thing, though: the ones that didn't have them, fell
>>>>>>> apart. Sometimes in very embarrassing ways. And one thing I've learned in
>>>>>>> trying to work with nonprofits in some parts of the world is that if you
>>>>>>> ask for accountability, and get only indignation in response, you're better
>>>>>>> off turning away and not bothering with those people ever again. They are
>>>>>>> on the take. I don't want to be like them. When potential donors say, "I
>>>>>>> need to look at how you spend money," I want to be in a position throw all
>>>>>>> the verification at them that they could possibly want, and more. They'll
>>>>>>> want to know that the level of parasitism in my organization is acceptably
>>>>>>> low. How can I blame them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Permit a biological metaphor: a fair amount of any creature's
>>>>>>> metabolism goes into supporting its immune system. It's a lot. It's a
>>>>>>> massive, worthless drain, actually. Until there's an infection, or a
>>>>>>> cluster of mutant cells that might turn into a malignant tumor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Silence Dogood <
>>>>>>> matt at nycresistor.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my experience, working for a space agency, people who are
>>>>>>>> interested in "setting up a framework in which every iota of
>>>>>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>>>>>> be recorded."  are usually a massive worthless drain on the
>>>>>>>> project and very interested in inserting themselves in places they have no
>>>>>>>> earthly business being, just to justify their continued leeching upon the
>>>>>>>> project.  And, more often then not, they cost more than they benefit
>>>>>>>> anyone... not just in fiduciary cost, but in time, complexity, and general
>>>>>>>> nuisance factor introduced into the day to day operational workflow of the
>>>>>>>> group working on the project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Matt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Michael Turner <
>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt, in my experience of hackerspaces, there's lots of bitter
>>>>>>>>> argument by people who aren't contributing much of anything, much of the
>>>>>>>>> time. I tried. Eventually, I walked. I contributed time, money, equipment,
>>>>>>>>> project ideas ... but ultimately, I walked. I felt pretty alienated by
>>>>>>>>> know-it-all attitudes and a kind of knee-jerk anti-authoritarianism that
>>>>>>>>> prefers unproductive chaos to reasonable order.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, again:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota of
>>>>>>>>> effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can
>>>>>>>>> be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some point,
>>>>>>>>> and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd like to
>>>>>>>>> hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up such
>>>>>>>>> frameworks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:08 AM, Silence Dogood <
>>>>>>>>> matt at nycresistor.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In open source, committers walk and everyone else talks... and is
>>>>>>>>>> promptly ignored.  If you think something can be done better, do it
>>>>>>>>>> better.  Leadership is an act of demonstrating a better path forward.
>>>>>>>>>> Decrying folks is not productive.  We know success when we see it,
>>>>>>>>>> everything else is just more of the same.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, stop bitching, and go make a difference.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Matt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Michael Turner <
>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've
>>>>>>>>>>> sent has been a slash and burn."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm destructive? What's more destructive: criticism of
>>>>>>>>>>> corruption, or corruption?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 12:57 AM, David <ainut at hiwaay.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've sent
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/18/2016 11:02 AM, cole santos wrote:has been a slash and
>>>>>>>>>>>> burn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> David Merchant
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lol you just don't get it troll
>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 18, 2016 1:03 AM, "Michael Turner" <
>>>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mike no one wanted to work with you because of emails like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you just sent."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought there should be more openness and oversight, and so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nobody wanted to work with me? Interesting. I hadn't realized that openness
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and oversight were such unpopular things when spending taxpayers money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless, of course, you're a taxpayer. Are you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Since I wrote the grant, and got the Corp formed, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> followed through until the project start, I think it's ok moraly."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I always assumed an education in philosophy would acquaint a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> person with the difference between morals and ethics. You learn something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> every day, I guess.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682 <%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:48 AM, cole santos <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cksantos85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike no one wanted to work with you because of emails like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you just sent. We are amateurs hacking it. Ps haesh was my project and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was somewhat a sweetheart deal. I had to choose between a project or a job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I wrote the grant, and got the Corp formed, and followed through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until the project start, I think it's ok moraly. The other projects were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all random submissions. The principal aka jerry got overwhelmed and didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even really want the job. I kinda forced it on him as I had a full time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job. Reality is not nearly as sensational as u wish.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2016 9:07 PM, "Michael Turner" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First things first:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point, and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such frameworks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, about the "drama":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:51 AM, gmc <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gmc at hackerspaces.org>gmc at hackerspaces.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay, drama. It's what hackers are best at! Bye bye mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly, some disillusionment and malaise has set in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hackerspaces.org? No blog update since just about two years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting critique there, though:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://flux.hackerspaces.org/2014/01/19/diversity-and-the-hacker-scene/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drama will never go away permanently. Sometimes the only way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to quell drama is with rules.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you're going to have rules, you can try counting on ideas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like legitimizing all decisions through the rule of relying on consensus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (it always breaks down). Or on rules set by some "benevolent oligarchy"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (the "oligarchs" often get tired of arbitration and moderation, and go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missing.) There are a variety of other dodges of the basic responsibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of collective governance, which is tedious and stressful compared to making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of SpaceGAMBIT, the dodge took the form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> locating all authority over spending that $500,000 in a tiny handful of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who operated in a pretty opaque fashion. In at least one case, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opacity was defended by a SpaceGAMBIT principal in terms of DARPA's tight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulations about the release of information. When I asked for chapter and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verse of those regulations, there was no answer. Wait: you're saying you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got money from a government agency that doesn't tell taxpayers the basis on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it allows awarded organizations to release information about how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxpayer money is being spent? Interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the nature of the political differences over taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money from DARPA, I can see a reason for not identifying winning teams when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the awards went out. It might have been defensible as a way to protect the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awarded teams from harassment by those who were most loudly opposed to that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money, and to what any hackerspace group taking that money symbolized to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem was: opacity could enable sweetheart deals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Waste. Lax controls.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what do we have at the end?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Examples:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $20,000 for an open source satellite mission design project
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that apparently never checked anything into a repo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The HAESH project, which, by some odd coincidence, was based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Hawaii. (And apparently on Maui.)That was statistically unlikely,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially when you consider that the main SpaceGAMBIT executive exulted at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one point about how great it was to work internationally, not just in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America, and not just in his tiny home region of -- you guessed it --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hawaii. Maui, in fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about the thousands of dollars for the open source
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make-a-Space Kit? It had a laudable goal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The goal of this project is to complete the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content--finalize the entire kit-- and then create a turn-key online
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template which a new or existing space can use to instantiate the online
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> project management, assign specific tasks to board members, track
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accountability, and effectively communicate about the status of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> activities as the space is launched and formed."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is it? Dead links on the SpaceGAMBIT site. Try to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something back from the Wayback Machine? Unsuccessful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about that Asteroid Badge?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/CuriosityHacked/Learning/wiki/SpaceAsteroids
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's something in there that looks like a rough draft of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make-a-Space Kit, but certainly nothing that looks "finalized."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thousands of dollars spent on those two projects. And this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is all there is to show for it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's what happens when there's no openness or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accountability, and when money can be spent without significant oversight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a small group of people.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, to repeat my request:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point, and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such frameworks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682 <%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16 May 2016 18:26:04 CEST, Michael Turner <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:55 AM, cole santos <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <cksantos85 at gmail.com>cksantos85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually we took the DarPA money and the project was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great success. <http://Www.spacegambit.Com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Www.spacegambit.Com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A great success for some people, I suppose.  In a certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I pick a project at random.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funding: $20,000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceGAMBIT claim: only open source projects will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> funded.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reality: well, ta! ke a look.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    <http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excuse: "schedules slip". OK, but you can't check in any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code, anywhere?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At least, that's the only repo I could find.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's nothing in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was largely because of my concerns about openness,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clear communication, democratic process, and leadership accountability that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I decided to have nothing further to do with SpaceGAMBIT. This was after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feeling enthusiastic about it and even defending it against what I thought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was unfair criticism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Really, I'd prefer to have been wrong in my suspicions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158 <%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682 <%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <turner at projectpersephone.org>turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.projectpersephone.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 16, 2016, Michael P Weber II <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <michaelweberii at gmail.com>michaelweberii at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:05 AM, Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Whether intentional or not, the choice of watercress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > space-relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (1) Biosphere II saw the direct participation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> late Roy Walford, MD, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > pioneer self-experimenter in CRON (calorie restriction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with optimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > nutrition) as a strategy for life extension. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> research interested the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Biosphere II organizers because, in feeding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long-duration space mission
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > participants, fewer calories eaten means, to a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first approximation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > less mass for the ecological life support system,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leading to lower mission
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > cost, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (2) Research into how CRON appears to increase
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifespans (in part by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > reducing cancer risk -- a big issue in space travel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because of space
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > radiation) reveals that it's more about protein
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restriction than about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > calorie restriction per se.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (3) Further research has suggested that it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically reduction of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > methionine intake that is the main driver of life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension in CRON (hence,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > presumably, lower cancer risk);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (4) High-glycine diets sop up excess methionine. (To
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be sure: methionine is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > an essential amino acid; glycine is not. But it seems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that with methionine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > you can get too much of a good thing.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (5) Watercress is very high in glycine, quite low in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methionine. Watercress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > might be ideal for offsetting the cancer risks from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space radiation in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > long-duration space missions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I think a good next step in such work would be to try
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to optimize watercress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > production in an aeroponic rather than a hydroponic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> style. Hydroponics is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > great, highly productive, but ... water is heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aeroponics can give you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > much of the benefit of hydroponics but with a fraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the equipment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > mass. Aeroponics should be more adaptable to low-g and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> microgravity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > environments since it's not gravity-dependent -- it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically just the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > deposition of nutrient-enriched mist droplets on plant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots. Aeroponics may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > have gotten its start from NASA funding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Project Persephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > K-1 bldg 3F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 7-2-6 Nishishinjuku
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > turner at projectpersephone.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <http://www.projectpersephone.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.projectpersephone.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking outward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > together in the same direction." -- Antoine de
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saint-Exupéry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Michael Turner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you going to take over the list then?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing listSpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ SpaceProgram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ SpaceProgram
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing listSpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.orghttp://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SpaceProgram mailing list
>>> SpaceProgram at lists.hackerspaces.org
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram
>>
>>
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