[hackerspaces] Transcript of the first Austin Hackerspace general meeting

[Bryan Bishop]

Hey all,

I sat in the corner of the room typing down a transcript of what
everyone was saying. I am terribly sorry that I do not have
attribution for everyone. Someone will probably throw this transcript
up on the austinhackerspaces.org wiki at some point as well. There was
also a ustream stream, but I don't know if anyone recorded.

http://designfiles.org/~bryan/chats/2010-04-13_austinhackerspace.log

I had to leave at about 20:30, so it's incomplete, but Mike took over
with some summarizing.

--- Day changed Tue Apr 13 2010
--- Log opened Tue Apr 13 18:24:38 2010
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18:42 < kanzure> is this right? martin had his family lawyer write up
a liabiliy waiver for les
18:42 < kanzure> not sure if les has read it yet
18:42 < kanzure> "no responsibility to inform others of possibility of
hazardous situations"
18:44 < kanzure> *liability
18:44 < kanzure> "The only reason we generated these waivers was to
let Les continue to operate without starting a war with his landlord
or #107."
18:45 < kanzure> "You have a surface microphone we can put on the wall
with #107?"
18:46 < kanzure> "There's slightly imbalanced and then there's
completely not there, so."
18:46 < kanzure> "I'm not going to poke that dragon."
18:47  * kanzure wonders if we can have the liability waiver rewritten
if necessary
18:47 < darkcontrast> if you pay for it :)
18:48 < kanzure> okay
18:48 < ACProdigy> ?Hmm
18:48 < kanzure> "The one that I want to throw out there is that you
have to assume that someone is recording it."
18:49 < kanzure> "If you are going to webcast, you need to publish
your own version."
18:49 < kanzure> "M<aybe record it and edit it down."
18:49 < kanzure> "Lady Ada doesn't put the whole thing out there
because someone may record it. You want to verify that it will be the
correct recording."
18:49 < ACProdigy> Are you acting running scribe?
18:49 < kanzure> "How much do we want to publish? We're in a community
that is hyper-sensitive to this type of space."
18:49 < kanzure> "Texas is conservative. Austin is not so much."
18:49 < kanzure> yes
18:49 < kanzure> "And we have a grumpy neighbor. The landlord has told
him to take a hike."
18:50 < ACProdigy> So, the webcasting is a no-go, then?
18:50 < kanzure> right
18:50 < kanzure> i'll just type
18:50 < ACProdigy> Lol, alright.
18:51 < kanzure> only a handful of people are here
18:51 < kanzure> mike, matt, steve, martin, david, and victor(?) or
someone else i don't know the name of
18:51 < ACProdigy> I couldn't make it due to training. They picked
today, of all days..
18:51 < ACProdigy> How long does it look like the meeting is going to be?
18:51 < kanzure> "If anyone else has something to the agenda tonight,
it would be a good idea to add it there to the discussion."
18:51 < kanzure> depends on who shows up ;)
18:51 < kanzure> "We are officially a business entity according to the bank."
18:51 < ACProdigy> I might be able to make it out there in half an hour or so
18:51 < kanzure> "They don't care. As long as one person is willing to
sign and be responsible."
18:52 < kanzure> you can also just ask questions and i'll voice them
18:52 < ACProdigy> Thank you for that.
18:52 < kanzure> "LLC, non-profit, it's easy. Okay."
18:52 < kanzure> "We have officially have 1426 dollars now in the account."
18:52 < kanzure> "I want a drink"
18:52 < kanzure> woops
18:53 < ACProdigy> lol
18:54 < kanzure> "No space for the minor to sign."
18:54 < kanzure> "All of this was designed for Geek House, which was
meant to be residential condos. So it was going to be in San
Francisco. It's a modified version of that."
18:55 < kanzure> "Can I get the waiver signed on Monday?" "Sure,
there's not a problem with that."
18:57 < kanzure> evan entered
18:58 -!- plars [~plars at 75-27-138-126.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net]
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18:58 < kanzure> hello plars
18:58  * kanzure is transcripting
18:58 < plars> hi :)
18:58 < kanzure> "I am surprised that les still has all his fingers."
18:58 < kanzure> "Les is very, very careful."
18:59 -!- Martyn [~martinb at 71.22.109.98] has joined #austinhackerspace
18:59 < kanzure> hello Martyn
18:59 < kanzure> oh, wait
19:00 < kanzure> "We've got a biologically hazardous organism clause! Cool."
19:00 < kanzure> "AHS members are going to have to sign a different
one as well, which goes with our insurance company. The lawyer will
make it sound lawyerly."
19:00 < kanzure> "This waiver sounds reasonable, actually."
19:01 < kanzure> "It initially took us 4 weeks to write it out."
19:01 < kanzure> david entered
19:01 < kanzure> well, another david
19:02  * kanzure wonders where nathan turner is tonight
19:02 < kanzure> "Should we do a quick tour before we start for people
that haven't seen the space?"
19:02 < kanzure> oh man, more people
19:03 < darkcontrast> justin and otto
19:03 < kanzure> thanks
19:03 < darkcontrast> i forget the others :/
19:03 < kanzure> maybe we should do a roll call / name call
19:03 < darkcontrast> second
19:03 < darkcontrast> w00h00 11 people
19:04 < kanzure> christian
19:04 < ACProdigy> Can you ask if its alright to log this for my
reference? Usually its frowned upon, but..
19:05 < kanzure> go ahead and log
19:05 < kanzure> i'm not typing this for nothing
19:05 < ACProdigy> Right
19:05 < kanzure> todo: whiteboard
19:05 < ACProdigy> [nod]
19:05 < kanzure> "Someone is driving here. What landmark should they
look for?" "Breakcheck."
19:05 < kanzure> roland
19:06 < darkcontrast> it's fairly hard to prevent people from
logging.. and i don't see a problem with it
19:06 < kanzure> otto mehi ?
19:06 < ACProdigy> Well its the honour system anyways
19:06 < kanzure> steven regester
19:06 < ACProdigy> But I figured I'd ask
19:07 < darkcontrast> otto hemmi
19:07 < kanzure> christian miller
19:07 < kanzure> rolland mcintosh
19:07 < kanzure> roland?
19:07 < kanzure> david dosher?
19:07 < kanzure> evan mallory
19:07 < darkcontrast> it'll be on the wiki
19:07 < kanzure> brockshire?
19:08 < kanzure> walt fowler, david fowler just entered
19:08 < ACProdigy> Is there a media/photography waiver, or is that
just needing to be established on a per-case basis?
19:08 < kanzure> "No. There is not one at this time. It's up to Les."
19:08 < ACProdigy> Regarding individuals who may be in-frame, etc.
19:09 < kanzure> "The only thing that you can not take pictures of is
in the workshop part for the pre-production crew. They are top-secret.
You can look at it, and talk to them about it, just don't take
pictures."
19:09 < darkcontrast> if in doubt, ask les.. for now, he prefers not
to have a lot of pictures out there
19:09 < ACProdigy> Alright.
19:09 < darkcontrast> be aware there may be copyrighted material around
19:09 < ACProdigy> Of course.
19:10 < kanzure> but for some reason there's a lot on the wiki
19:11 < kanzure> why are people moving around
19:11 < kanzure> "Okay. I am expecting someone to come in randomly."
"Yes I have a friend coming in in a few minutes."
19:11 < kanzure> "power?"
19:12 < kanzure> "Does anybody have an objection to this being
webcasted or recorded in any way? It basically might be recorded by
someone. So."
19:12 < kanzure> "There are people on the internet that want to know
what we're doing?"
19:12 < ACProdigy> I've been there in person
19:12 < kanzure> les entered
19:13 < ACProdigy> So I'm not a completely random person
19:13 < ACProdigy> haha.
19:13 < kanzure> http://ustream.tv/channel/austin-hackerspace
19:13 < ACProdigy> Awesome
19:13 < darkcontrast> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/austin-hackerspace
19:13 < kanzure> "Welcome to the very first meeting of the Austin Hackerspace."
19:13 < kanzure> "Ah, I hate this."
19:13 < kanzure> hm
19:13 < kanzure> "So, what we're going to- I guess what we want to
start with is a brief history of AHS."
19:14 < kanzure> "Not just that, but how we kind of, how we exist and
how we fit into the greater whole of the space we are currently
sitting in."
19:14 < kanzure> "There are four people that got together. Ratha
Grimes, who is not here, myself (Martin), we moved from SF and from
Seattle to Austin."
19:14 < kanzure> "We met Matt McCabe, and Mike Rich."
19:14 < kanzure> "There's someone else that is a part of it -Whurley-
who helped us find each other. And literally we sat down in Austin
Java back in November."
19:14 < kanzure> "A lot of people talking about stuff, let's just put
something together and see what happens, see what explodes."
19:15 < kanzure> "That month, it was November, we chose to go and see
if we could find a space. So we're looking at various potential
locations, and we found this guy, Les Filip."
19:15 < kanzure> "Les was going to be one of the co-founders of
TechShop here in Austin, and I am sure he will tell you in long detail
if you would like. But only those things that are covered by NDAs."
19:15 < kanzure> "So, Les was- has, independently also trying to start
a space, and it all gelled together pretty well. He had this wonderful
idea of letting us come in and rent spaces."
19:15 < kanzure> "They are currently all rented out. We have 3. Film
production has the rest."
19:15 < kanzure> "There are 4 other groups."
19:15 < kanzure> "Tim"
19:15 -!- MattZeroSeven [~Adium at 71.22.109.98] has joined #austinhackerspace
19:16 < kanzure> "There are other people and we'll talk about how we
relate to that."
19:16 < kanzure> "Les was kind enough to say hey, if you want in on
this, get in. So we did. We put in a lot of hours. Some of you have
been volunteering on Saturdays, putting in blood sweat and tears and
more tears."
19:16 < kanzure> "We have built a series of spaces, workshops if you
would like, they are 8x10. AHS has 3 of them. They are the first three
in the row."
19:16 < ACProdigy> Excellent transcribing, by the way. Thanks for that.
19:16 < kanzure> "Those will be our HQ. This is where we live."
19:16 < kanzure> "That's pretty much the beginning of getting this
started. All of us had an independent idea of what a hackerspace is."
19:16 < kanzure> "I'll say a little bit about what myself is."
19:17 < kanzure> "My name is Matt, and basically it was Mike and I had
this idea for a while, for a couple years, we created a wiki and
promptly forgot about it. So it was really Ratha and Martin's kick in
the butt that .. that's Ratha."
19:17 < kanzure> enter ratha
19:17 < kanzure> "It was really them coming to town and giving us a
kick in the pants, and saying let's really do this."
19:17 < kanzure> "I want to point out that this wouldn't have happened
or wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Les."
19:17 < kanzure> "Over and over again I get asked by other
ahackerspaces how this was possible. "
19:17 < kanzure> "Most lax-landlord ever."
19:18 < kanzure> "So really, that's . We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Les."
19:18 < kanzure> (round of applause)
19:18 < ACProdigy> [clapclapclap]
19:18 < kanzure> "So, I want to go around and let each of us four
introduce ourselves, who we are and what we are up to."
19:18 < darkcontrast> you wanna be my voice kanzure?
19:18 < kanzure> Ratha: "I'm Ratha. I moved to Austin more than a year ago."
19:18 < kanzure> maybe
19:18 < darkcontrast> it'll really confuse people
19:19 < kanzure> "Austin is really cool. I might want to live there.
So I came there to meet people. We all said you should do this
hackerspace thing. So now I am getting a job at Google, so I'm moving
out next week. I'm here for moral support."
19:19 < ACProdigy> DarkContrast: are you not there in person?
19:19 < kanzure> he is
19:19 < kanzure> "And of course Matt."
19:19 < darkcontrast> my voice comes and goes :)
19:19 < ACProdigy> Ahhh, gotcha.
19:19 < kanzure> "My name is Matt. I'm a web programmer. I own my
small business. I quit the corporate world. I am loving my
non-corporate non-9-to-5 job. I am more of a tinkerer than a hacker. I
like to learn and I like to make things. So that's why I am here and
why I want to be involved in this."
19:20 < kanzure> "I'm Martin. I come from San Francisco and Florida. I
am a co-founder of NYC Resistor and Noisebridge. I am a hacker in
every aspect of the word. I do PCB designer, robotics controllers, all
the way to genetic engineering. My primary purpose here is to work on
some of my projects and also teach people as much as I possibly can
dump out of my head for what people find to be fun. That is the point
of it. And to have fun."
19:20 < kanzure> "Who wants the task of taking the minutes?"
19:21 < kanzure> >_<
19:21  * darkcontrast Martyn has a piece of hardware which may or may
not be helpful at the end of July in Vegas
19:21 < kanzure> "How are we going to organizse ourselves?"
19:21 < kanzure> "There are a llot of different options as to how we
can exist as an entity. Some of them are like, we are currently a
co-op, so Ratha, Mike and Matt and I have signed for a workshop with
Les. We are kind of structured that way. It was convenient at the time
because we didn't have a lot of people."
19:21 < ACProdigy> kanzure: Is the room echoing or is it the stream?
19:21 < kanzure> "Examples: LLC, we can do the LLC"
19:21 < kanzure> it's the stream
19:21 < ACProdigy> Okay, just making sure :D
19:22 < kanzure> "There's an L3C, a limited liability corporation for
non-profits. It's a low-profit - it's a company that whose mission is
a social thing. We'll get into that."
19:22 < kanzure> "Examples: LLC, we can do the LLC. We'd have to talk
into a lawyer, incorporate in Texas and also AAADelaware. It gets
weird."
19:23 < kanzure> "Finally, a non-profit corporation. There are
difficulties in all of these. There are other ways to organize. In
discussing, in the discussions that Matt, Mike and I have been, we've
kind of focused on the LLC because it's a full limited liability
company. The board members would take the brunt of the liability
financially, and repsonsibility if anything happens for a
hackerspace."
19:23 < ACProdigy> [nod]
19:23 < kanzure> "This is one way to do it. The other reflection to
that is the non-profit corporation. They are watched like a hawk by
the IRS because the real only benefit to it is that you can take
donations, and you can take that off of your taxes."
19:23 < darkcontrast> the L3C would have to be incorporated
out-of-state (there are only about 10 states that have this on this
book)
19:23 < kanzure> "It costs a fortunate. 501c(3). 501c(4). You start a
c3. It would be a 501c3."
19:23 < kanzure> yeah
19:24 < kanzure> "A c3 can be a club, and a c4 is more cheritable. C3
are not expected to do cherity necessaricly."
19:24 < kanzure> "You can become tax-exempt under 501c3. Of the
hackerspaces, in the U.S., are pretty evenly split between LLC and
501c3. None of them have gone the low-profit way. A few are, the
smallest ones are just limited partnerships so that they can get bank
accounts."
19:24 < kanzure> "I'll open the floor to pipe in."
19:25 < ACProdigy> My two cents: LLC sounds like a more viable choice.
Especially with the issues 501c3's and the IRS can tend to cause.
19:25 < kanzure> "Those are your two best choices. I wouldn't do the
l3c, that's just Delaware and Virginia, and only a couple of States
that do that. It's hardly recognized. The LLC and non-profit are the
two-ways. Isn't much difference in the paperwork. A 990T, or you're
doing the 1120 or one of the other. The LLC is the one I'd recommend."
19:26 < kanzure> "On an LLC, youj can have an unlimited number of
members of the board of directors. Everyone could become a member of
the board. Member-managed LLC. There are two types of LLC. Whereas
there has to be a smaller and deliniated groups of directors in a
501dc3."
19:26 < kanzure> "They hire an executive based off of where the clock
dings. Noisebridge has a very odd social experiment going on called
consensus. It's breaking down horribly."
19:26 < kanzure> "How does nycresistor work?"
19:26 < kanzure> "NYC resistor is an LLC with a board and executive structure."
19:26 < kanzure> "Do you expect a profit and to whom do you expect the
profit to go to?"
19:27 < kanzure> "My opinion is that we should operate with the idea
that we will try to grow our hackerspace and try to keep a buffer, but
that we're not profit-motivated. We need to meet our operating
expenses, anything else goes to growth. With an LLC, then everyone
needs an 1120 for the tax return. And then a CPA to do that for every
single member."
19:27 < kanzure> "It also depends how you structure it. If everyone
has a share, for example, of the LLC, then that is the case. However
if you use the LLC as a business container, the space itself, then
individual members won't have to worry about that, unless they become
investing members."
19:28 < kanzure> "Membership has a definition in a LLC."
19:28 < kanzure> (in terms of taxes)
19:28 < kanzure> "Members will get the taxes."
19:28 < kanzure> "For simplicity we will say that, we'll call an LLC
member, and the other a member. That way we can deliniate it."
19:28 < kanzure> "What I would recommend is that the intent is not to
make a profit, but to meet expenses. So what you can do is have a
certain number minimum, to have the corporation exist. Anyone can come
in fi they want and buy a share."
19:28 < Martyn> ACProdigy: What's your RL name?  I forgot...
19:28 < kanzure> "Other one needs to be a member of the LLC. If you
feel compelled to have a say in what's going on, then you can be a
member of the LLC."
19:29 < kanzure> "Or you can have profit, it gets returned back by
reducing rent, equipment, and always keep that 0-level. You can either
be a voting member or not, or you can just be a paid member, etc."
19:29 < kanzure> "That's true."
19:29 < kanzure> "Because if we get everyone here in as a member, then
we get CPA issues."
19:29 < kanzure> "But they also charge a lot."
19:29 < ACProdigy> Lost stream.
19:29 < ACProdigy> ACProdigy: I'm Tim.
19:30 < ACProdigy> er
19:30 < ACProdigy> wow.
19:30 < kanzure> "Even if we, we can also form as an LLC, and then
down the road, start fulfilling out the paperwork if we want to go to
a non-profit model."
19:30 < kanzure> ACProdigy: fail :)
19:30 < ACProdigy> Martyn: ACProdigy<-> Tim.
19:30 < ACProdigy> Sorry
19:30 < ACProdigy> My laptop is on my back.
19:30 < ACProdigy> I'm walking about.
19:30 < darkcontrast> hahaha what?
19:30 < kanzure> "We just need a legal entity. If someone hurts
themselves sues us, we have some sort of buffer. So, it is also to
protect Les. If someone comes in and does something stupid, we might
get sued, and maybe that will protects Les."
19:30 < ACProdigy> I have an earpiece in, but my laptop is on my back for IRC.
19:30 < kanzure> "The waiver that you just signed will only protect
Les. We've had some talks with people about interesting events, along
the line of Makerfaire, which would happen outside of here."
19:31 < kanzure> "Another immediate need is that we've had at least
one, in how many details I don't know how to give out, we've had one
organization come to us and say that they want to give us money to
teach classes. So what do we do then? If we don't have a legal entity,
it's difficult to take someone's money. They're not going to check a
write to me or Martin or Mike. They should write it to an organization
that has a specific mission that is aligned with their grant
requirements."
19:31 < kanzure> "In an LLC, they will give money to an LLC or a
non-profit. It's a non-issue, we don't have to be a non-profit. We
need some sort of legal structure."
19:32 < kanzure> "Any other? Any one have a strong opinion one way or
another? Speak now or forever hold your peace."
19:32 < kanzure> "Whether or not to be a non-profit. You wouldn't
generally ... you don't need to be a non-profit tomorrow. If you're
going to do something now, then you hsould do an LLC. The IRS will
take 9mo for a non-profit."
19:32 < kanzure> "We can ponder the non-profit status."
19:33 < kanzure> "What is the advantage of being a 501c3? It's not
that much less paperwork. You have to take yearly minutes, you have to
abide by the corporate structure. Your charter has to be absolutely
adhered to. Changing your charter requires a full board meeting to
change everything."
19:33 < kanzure> "I took a 501c3 class one semester and it didn't seem
like a huge deal. But on the other hand, the professor wasn't much of
a big deal either."
19:33 < kanzure> "you have to abide by significantly more restrictions
as a non-profit with an LLC. But you're trying to be more flexible."
19:34 < kanzure> "So, then, if we're going to form an as LLC, who
should be the members?"
19:34 < kanzure> "Would there be any problem if we form the LLC? It
follows corporate structure. You have to give up your stake."
19:34 < kanzure> "I would be willing to be a board member, and I would
want to be invited."
19:34 < kanzure> "There are conflicts if he tries to steer it."
19:35 < kanzure> "The board member serves to elect or fire the
executive. That's what board members. Advisory roles, it has status.
They also serve as the primary target for liability of the company.
They are specifically finacially responsible."
19:35 < kanzure> "Not really with an LLC unless there's flagrant abuse."
19:35 < kanzure> "The executives don't get sued, but the board members do."
19:35 < kanzure> "What form of LLC? Member-managed, or board-managed?"
19:35 < kanzure> enter john griessen
19:36 < kanzure> "About a month ago there was a big discussion on
liability. Signing up with the State and forming a corporation makes
you easy to find liability, easy to blame. That's just part of the
thing. That's why you take liability insurance. That's the next thing
on the agenda."
19:36 < kanzure> "It is difficult to obtain liability insurance
without a legal entity. We could do it individually, but it's not the
same thing."
19:37 < kanzure> "AHS is covered by my personal policy with Statefarm
Insurance. While we are in the space, ew're covered by Statefarm by
Les too. We have $1.5M by Martin, and $500k by Les."
19:37 < kanzure> "I understand the desire to protect ourselves. Have
you paid lipservice cash under the table fly by night? As far as
liability goes, .."
19:37 < kanzure> "Mike and I were pushing this at the beginning. We
don't even know if this is going to work."
19:38 < kanzure> "What we decided is that, there's no way to run an
organization without having some sort of legal entity around it."
19:38 < kanzure> "We're not all pocketing the money. We don't want to
have that. We want to avoid that appearance."
19:38 < kanzure> "Waivers are only as good as the court they are signed in."
19:38 -!- Halogenoalkane [~chatzilla at 74.196.116.125] has joined
#austinhackerspace
19:38 < kanzure> "Insurance means that they will fight for you hard.
Insurance hates that they lose their money."
19:38 < kanzure> hey Halogenoalkane
19:38 < kanzure> john griessen
19:39 < kanzure> "It's a $10k grant to teach tech classes. So, again,
without going into details, like we don't know if it's going to
happen. It kind of just came down out of the sky. We're this fly by
night operation, give us $10k. yeah right. Make the check out to Matt
McCabe, I don't think so. We only accept money orders. We're a
hackerspace woo!"
19:39 < kanzure> "Let's just get a consensus. Does anyone have a
different idea than an LLC or something off of that track for phase
1?"
19:40 < kanzure> "How much support activity and money will it take
from members to support this LLC and record-keeping and book-keeping?
Gnucash, or CPA, or what?"
19:40 < kanzure> "It would be the same no matter which organizational
structure we choose."
19:40 < kanzure> "Let's get a show of hands, of people present, how
many people are in favor of an LLC?"
19:40 < ACProdigy> Me!
19:40 < kanzure> "We have general consensus. We will proceed to
incorporate as an LLC in the State of Texas."
19:40 < kanzure> "You're going to put all of our names in it? Is it
going to be a partnership?"
19:41 < kanzure> "There is one more thing. Insurance and liability.
What we need and why we need it or don't need it. Les has got a policy
from Statefarm for the space we are in. It's pretty strong. They came
in and inspected everything and decided he was worthy of getting a
good price."
19:41 < kanzure> "We're going to move forward as a separate entity.
How does the liability work?"
19:42 < ACProdigy> hahaha
19:42 < kanzure> "The more liability insurance that we go for, the
more expensive as John was saying, things get. I did a quick bit of
shopping with a bunch of insurers, and Medco, Statefarm, Metco
Metlife, and a few others. It is. Other hackerspaces have been
insured, but they cost about $1.2k/year and that gets you $1M of
general purpose liability, I fell down the stairs, someone's
experiment blew up. The kind of things that happen."
19:42 < plars> woops :)
19:42 < ACProdigy> Hmm?
19:42 < kanzure> "It doesn't cover medical, it just covers general
damage. I really don't know what kind of liability insurance we should
get. The more things you want, the more expensive it gets."
19:42 < ACProdigy> plars: Did you blow something up..?
19:43 < Halogenoalkane> uh oh :P
19:43 < kanzure> "$1M/year? It's a million dollars liability, a
million dollars payout. That's the total. The maximum payout per given
incident is equally up to $1M in this type of policy. In this cover,
would it cover medical if someone gets hurt? No."
19:43 < kanzure> "It covers getting sued, if someone gets hurt, they
would have to sue the corporation and try to get it through those
means, unless we put a medical rider on it. If your corporation has
almost no money, they won't sue you. Your board members have money
though."
19:44 < kanzure> "Some of the founders or people on the board might
have quite a lot on the line. And betting that someone is not going to
sue you is never a good bet. It's the united states, you'll get sued."
19:44 < kanzure> "If we go out and get this liability insurance, what
are people interested in seeing. What type of coverage would you like
to see?"
19:44 < kanzure> "What kind of things would you want to be insured for?"
19:44 < ACProdigy> Ah I had a question
19:45 < ACProdigy> Is there going to be electronic lockout or somesuch
on the larger tools?
19:45 < kanzure> "Medical. If I cut my hand off at the table saw,
doesn't that get covered by my job? If you signed the waiver, you need
to realize that you need to have personal medical insurance. You
signed it already."
19:45 < kanzure> yes
19:45 < ACProdigy> Alright
19:45 < kanzure> "I guarantee that you will not be allowed to use my
laser cutter without a card. You will need training before you use
it."
19:45 < kanzure> "So other than medical and general liability. Some of
you are into robotics."
19:46 < darkcontrast> Not all large equipment is guaranteed to have a lockout
19:46 < kanzure> "Negligence on the part of the people who should be
maintaining their personal equipment. Sticking your hands in someone's
laser cutter who's interlocks were disabled?"
19:46 < ACProdigy> In that case, would a custom interlock of sorts be
made to ensure training?
19:46 < ACProdigy> In the case of large equipment not having an
already existing lockout
19:46 < kanzure> "There's a specific type of liability for negligence,
acts of god, and something else. It's a rider. It doesn't cost that
much. It's $300 over the $1200 policy. Each rider is going to add more
to the overall cost."
19:46 < kanzure> yes it's presumably a "custom" interlock
19:47 < ACProdigy> Alright, I figured.
19:47 < darkcontrast> we're discussing who's responsibility it is to
provide training/interlock/etc
19:47 < ACProdigy> I have a few ideas for interlock systems design
19:47 < kanzure> "I would like to use the large CNC router for manufacturing."
19:47 < kanzure> "Could get into more electronics manufacturing stuff
along with that guy from San Antonio."
19:47 < kanzure> "I want to get into manufacturing things out of metal."
19:47 < ACProdigy> With centralized DB containing data as to whether a
person is trained to operate _x_
19:47 < kanzure> "robot apocalypse"
19:47 < kanzure> "electronics, soldering, chemicals"
19:48 < kanzure> "plastics molding"
19:48 < plars> zombies
19:48 < kanzure> ACProdigy: yeah i have some software about that if
you're interested maybe?
19:48 < kanzure> "machining"
19:48 < darkcontrast> plars: one sec
19:48 < kanzure> "automatons, electrical or mechanical, or makerbot"
19:48 < ACProdigy> kanzure: Well I was saying for the space, it would
make things a little easier if there were a central system with a
known protocol, that allows machines to be enabled/disabled.
19:48 < kanzure> yeah i know
19:49 < ACProdigy> okay
19:49 < Halogenoalkane> self aware AI
19:49 < ACProdigy> Also, Computer Security / Robotics / Electronics /
Chemistry, here.
19:49 < darkcontrast> no one has owned up to the possibility of creating zombies
19:49 < kanzure> "possibly hazardous biology"
19:49 < ACProdigy> Kanzure: Did Martyn mention that?
19:49 < kanzure> "CNC machinery"
19:49 < darkcontrast> zombies would probably fall under "possibly
hazardous biology"
19:49 < kanzure> "I have my own lab for the most part, I just want to
meet people."
19:50 < kanzure> "craft, dovetailing into CNC and extrusion and that
sort of thing"
19:50 < kanzure> "mechanical research and development" (woo les!)
19:50 < darkcontrast> splinters
19:50 < kanzure> "absorbing your information"
19:50 < kanzure> "I have a slight question. If I am into high voltage,
I want to make a singing arc. That shouldn't be a problem"
19:51 < kanzure> "My previous project was robotics control on the 300
to 600 amp range. My next project will be on the 2 to 50,000 volt
range. What size robotics are these? 150 pounds."
19:51 < kanzure> arcattack
19:51 < kanzure> "Someone might torch someone else's project or
someone else's person."
19:52 < kanzure> "We could get away with general liability with a
medical writer, under the general liability we will try to get the
negligence waiver or rider on top."
19:52 < kanzure> rider? writer?
19:52 < darkcontrast> rider
19:52 < kanzure> "This is going to cost, well, the basic policy is
going to come out to about $1500, and at the high end it will be
$2500. You will pay this once every six months. They generally don't
do this in a month to month way. You have to do this at a chunk at a
time. With these two riders, I'll try tgoget an everything policy. It
was up to $4k/year. To get it all. But that's coverage you can count
on. At that point you are covered."
19:53 < kanzure> "Is there some way that each individual can add
something to their own policy? I can get $1M liability for $100."
19:53 < ACProdigy> lol
19:53 < Halogenoalkane> those zombies
19:53 < kanzure> "We're trying to protect the AHS entity, and it's not
about you. It's aboiut the random person who walks in, falls down and
hits the arc that he happens to be testing. Or it's about - nobody
meant to do anything wrong- but the chemical experiment happened to
rust the girder, and the girder fell in."
19:53 < Halogenoalkane> start eating people
19:53 < kanzure> "The email from you said that members that didn't
have a slot, no key..."
19:54 < kanzure> "it sounds like the the numbers would have to be
high, and it wouldn't be easy to manage the group."
19:54 < ACProdigy> Kanzure: What are we discussing electronic-entry wise?
19:54 < kanzure> "It's between $2500 to $4k a year. They offer it in
lower quantities, but there's a cut-off point when they won't cover
you."
19:54 < kanzure> ACProdigy: there's a current system at the moment
19:54 < kanzure> MattZeroSeven: are you mccabe?
19:54 < ACProdigy> kanzure:  But its limited to office space owners,
is that going to be extended or..?
19:54 < kanzure> "Is this pretty much what we will need then?"
19:54 < kanzure> good question
19:55 < kanzure> "Does it cover the assets of the hackerspace?"
19:55 < kanzure> "theft is in there"
19:55 < darkcontrast> we're discussing who would have unattended
access to the space.. but what a "member" means is coming up
19:55 < ACProdigy> Surveillance, security?
19:55 < darkcontrast> and we still haven't discussed what it means to
be a part of ahs
19:55 < ACProdigy> Right
19:55 < ACProdigy> I'm just curious, some people have very odd hours
of availability
19:55 < ACProdigy> (Myself included)
19:55 < kanzure> "Is AHS going to own the equipment? Some of the
equipment is owned by AHS, some of it is not owned by AHS. What
equipment we own, we will have policies. What equipment we don't own,
will depend on the kindness or policies of them."
19:56 < kanzure> ACProdigy: yeah martin keeps skating around that
19:56 < darkcontrast> the membership question is a big one and we're
getting to it
19:56 < kanzure> "If Les' CNC machine gets destroyed somehow. Your
liability insurance would take cover of that? If we break the machine,
we would fix it. I would rather fix it through the general fund.
Touching your insurance is dangerous. If we have a fund by then, we'd
have to repair things, and get materials."
19:56 < ACProdigy> Alright
19:57 < ACProdigy> Just getting some clarification
19:57 < kanzure> "If we build these machines, we should be able to fix
them. We want to replace them with open source hardware."
19:57 < kanzure> "What are we responsible for and how does it split out?"
19:58 < kanzure> "We want to keep it cheap and focusing on what we
love to do and building this community. We need to balance these two
things."
19:58 < kanzure> "Our neighbors and how we interact with them."
19:58 < kanzure> "Are we going to talk about this? We need to be
careful about what you say about this."
19:59 < kanzure> "We exist as an entity, as an LLC. We are in here. We
have neighbors that are not a direct part of this LLC or project. They
have their own projects to do. Within the enDesign space, and also in
the community as a whole. There's Austin Robot Group, there's Austin
Planetarium. There are people who are outside of AHS. Dorkbot. That
sort of thing."
19:59 < kanzure> "It's really important how we feel about ourselves
and project ourselves and our responsibilities to them. So, you know."
20:00 < Halogenoalkane> yes
20:00 < Halogenoalkane> I like that motto
20:00 < kanzure> "One of the first p[rinciples of noisebridge, and one
of the first principles of the NY Resistor, and other hackerspaces, is
kind of a corny statement. If you've seen Bill and Ted's excellent
adventure: Be excellent to one another. It is to hold yourself to the
highest standard of behavior."
20:00 < kanzure> "Fight against the impulse to be mean. Not mean, but
to be vindictive. Who will be the George Carlin to be the mentor?"
20:00 < kanzure> les volunteers
20:01 < kanzure> "We each have to be our own. As corny as it sounds,
when Google started, they said "Do no evil". We know how that turned
out. We're still playing. It's a good start. Google tries hard."
20:01 < kanzure> "So, who are our neighbors?"
20:01 < kanzure> "It's also how we deal with each other. This is my
opinion only. I would like our organization to start with a statement
that we run everything to, very much like "Be excellent". To actually
make it part of who we are and what we do."
20:01 < kanzure> "Another thing that is simple and easy as a sort of
political statement, that I liked a lot, as a motto, is Make a
Difference."
20:01 < kanzure> "Add something."
20:02 < kanzure> "I could argue that Steve Jobs made a difference, but
he's still an asshole."
20:02 < ACProdigy> Agreed
20:02 < kanzure> "But it's true, make a difference. So this is
something that is important to me personally. I would like a consensus
on it. It's also the community. Within and without, and within and
outside of this organization, you know, we for example, we could have
someone in here who wants to have an office, and if they don't want to
be associated with AHS, and they want to collaborate, let's not be
assholes and say since they didn't become a part of our organization,
let's not shun them."
20:03 < kanzure> "Well, I am going to take my homes and go somewhere
else. Let's not do that. We understand this is a weird situation. A
hackerspace within a hackerspace. We're trying to define this, and we
don't know what that is."
20:03 < ACProdigy> Kanzure, your messages are being truncaged.
20:03 < ACProdigy> truncated*
20:03 < kanzure> "Let's just do our best and try not to be an asshole
even when other neighbors who are not in this space are causing
problems."
20:03 < kanzure> ACProdigy: i'll post the full log from my end eventually
20:03 < ACProdigy> That's fine
20:03 < ACProdigy> :D
20:03 < kanzure> "How about combining the two proposed mottos? Be
excellent and make a difference, we could merge it into Make Things
Better."
20:04 < kanzure> "Make a difference and be excellent."
20:04 < kanzure> "Be excellent to each other."
20:04 < kanzure> "Does anyone have an objection to that?"
20:04 < ACProdigy> Both are good.
20:04 < kanzure> "Make excellence."
20:04 -!- Halogenoalkane [~chatzilla at 74.196.116.125] has quit [Quit:
ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]]
20:04 < kanzure> "I think it should be both. I think we should
specifically say make a difference and be excellent."
20:04 < kanzure> "That's what our motto will be."
20:04 < kanzure> "What is the acronym?"
20:04 < ACProdigy> MAD and BE.
20:04 < ACProdigy> hahaha
20:05 < kanzure> "I think it should be both. I think we should
specifically say make a difference and be excellent."
20:05 < ACProdigy> BE MAD.
20:05 < darkcontrast> BE MAD?
20:05 < ACProdigy> >.>
20:05 < darkcontrast> haha
20:05 < kanzure> "Backronyms are evil."
20:05 < ACProdigy> Agreed.
20:05 < ACProdigy> Quick question
20:05 < kanzure> go ahead
20:05 < ACProdigy> Are you still going to be going in ~30-45 minutes?
I may head that way with some others that are interested.
20:06 < kanzure> um
20:06 < kanzure> good question
20:06 < darkcontrast> i'll be here
20:06 < kanzure> "So basically, if there's a sign that says do not
park in this space. For the love of god, don't park there. Even if it
isn't in front of the space it is referring to."
20:06 < kanzure> "Also be nice."
20:06 < darkcontrast> i'll be here until 11p fyi
20:06 < ACProdigy> Well
20:06 < ACProdigy> That's great and all (seriously)
20:06 < ACProdigy> But will the meeting still be going on by then, do you think?
20:07 < darkcontrast> kanzure: are you logging as well
20:07 < kanzure> yes
20:07 < kanzure> john griessen is passing around a co-op proposal :)
20:07 < darkcontrast> i would bet the meeting will still be going on :)
20:07 < darkcontrast> and i would bet that many of us will still be
around willing to talk about the metting
20:07 < kanzure> "There are other people in enDesign. There is one
currently in progress. I can't really detail even here because we're
being webcast. There's a lot of activity, models being made. That
project that is out there is a secret. And they trust us to not talk
about their secret. As of right now, how many organizations are
working in this one space."
20:08 < ACProdigy> Alright, I'll be leaving Leander/CedarPark shortly then.
20:08 < kanzure> "We want to talk about our neighbors. If someone is
doing film production, you don't want to be photographing their props,
their storyboard or anything."
20:08 < kanzure> "Some of these same people might be willing to teach
a casting class, or how to make fake weapons, or whatever."
20:08 < kanzure> "They are all really good and nice people, so please
stay on their good side. They have the same abilities to do in here
just like everyone does."
20:09 < kanzure> "It's 3k of shared space. The other is divided up
between the workshops and storage rooms. If you respect them, they
will respect you."
20:09 < kanzure> "Other folks include the Austin Plantearium board who
make props and so on. There's an audio company called OpenLabs that I
do work for, they come in and do things like on halloween they convert
a 40-foot long limo into an Enterprise Shuttlecraft."
20:09 < kanzure> "There's a couple people who aren't here tonight.
Justin is one. Different Justin than the one that is here."
20:09 < kanzure> "I'm probably going to forget someone. Kim and Tom."
20:10 < darkcontrast> can you guys hear ok?
20:10 < kanzure> "They will come in and do things, and they will look
like they are at home for a reason. They have been coming in for a
year and a half already."
20:10 < ACProdigy> Yes
20:10 < ACProdigy> Its quite clear actually.
20:10 < ACProdigy> The echos have resolved themselves well.
20:10 < kanzure> "When this project is completed, more space will be
open. More of these storage units will be constructed."
20:10 < darkcontrast> well, les anyway
20:10 < kanzure> "We'll have different people come in. Respect their
space, respect their stuff, and if you want to touch something that is
not yours, don't. At least ask them, and talk with them. They are
open, they will let you talk and play with them."
20:11 < darkcontrast> i think we got the extra laptops turned down :)
20:11 < kanzure> "AHS stuff will be very well labelled. We'll set it
up so that you know what you're working with, getting with them, and
deciding whether or not you are authorized."
20:11 < ACProdigy> Extra laptops?
20:11 < ACProdigy> Was that the same thing that was on the mailing list?
20:11 < kanzure> "With the exception of larger machine tools, anything
that will be stored out in the open will be used by anyone in here,
but that's not always the case. You'll label that kind of stuff."
20:11 < kanzure> "There will be a lock-out on the switch to it so you
couldn't use it anyway."
20:11 < kanzure> "Let's move on."
20:11 < kanzure> "I know you guys are getting restless."
20:11 < kanzure> "This is the biggie."
20:12 < kanzure> "What defines an AHS member? We literally talked
about this over and over again. Because there are something is solid.
There are a few things that we know ar esolid, and then there's some
things that are fuzzy."
20:12 < darkcontrast> i mean we got the echoes taken care of by
turning down other players :)
20:12 < kanzure> "Looking at other hackerspaces, what we've noticed is
that, this applies to co-working as well. There are two levels of
membership. You get your own dedicated space to store or do whatever
you want, and you get 24/7 key in this case, but it will end up being
a keycard. Right now it's a physical key and an alarm code."
20:13 < kanzure> "Each individual has a key and an alarm code. So
there's that level of membership. People who we.. I don't want to be..
stakeholders. Trusted and responsible. There's that level of
membership."
20:13 < ACProdigy> What is the issue of Security/DVR etc.
20:13 < kanzure> "We don't want to shut out people who want to come in
and take classes, use the space on a less-formal basis."
20:13 < darkcontrast> kanzure: do you know where that coop proposal is?
20:13 < kanzure> "How best to do this? My proposal, and looking at how
other hackerspaces do this, is to have kind of a second-level
membership that says we'll give you the same discounts on classes, the
same discounts on supplies, and we'll help you order supplies."
20:13 < kanzure> darkcontrast: yeah i stole a copy i'll type up
20:13 < kanzure> or pester john to send it out to the list
20:14 < ACProdigy> wait wait
20:14 < ACProdigy> wait
20:14 < ACProdigy> On that note
20:14 < ACProdigy> actually
20:14 < ACProdigy> Nevermind.
20:14 < kanzure> i like the co-op idea too
20:14 < ACProdigy> [nod nod]
20:14 < kanzure> "The hackerspace will always be open and free to
anyone who wants to visit. This excellence extends to anyone who wants
to come by. Always have internet for anyone who walks in."
20:14 < kanzure> "We'll let them have a comfortable space to work in a
project. But we won't let them use our resources without paying the
bills."
20:15 < darkcontrast> myself as well.. i was arguing strongly for it,
but there are practical reasons for needing a legal entity.. they're
not entirely mutually exclusive
20:15 < kanzure> "Something has to happen to help support that. That's
what these tiers of membership are good."
20:15 < kanzure> darkcontrast: yeah co-ops are still legal entities
20:15 < ACProdigy> brb.
20:15 < darkcontrast> ack, sorry i keep meaning collective
20:15 < kanzure> "I also had an idea for a sliding-scale for a general
membership scale. If you can't afford it, we'll make it cheap. If you
can't afford it, you shouldn't be locked out. Nobody should be locked
out for a lack of funds, unless we can't support them. If we get to
the point where we have nothing in the bank, then we can't."
20:16 < kanzure> "I don't have any urge to support people that way. I
don't have a feeling that everybody should be able to. You gotta
wanna, and if you wanna, you can pay a little bit."
20:16 < kanzure> "This gets into so much liability and danger
possibility that having people come in and casually.."
20:16 < kanzure> "What defines an AHS member? Privledges? Access?
Someone who walks in might be able to access our lounge might be able
to access our room."
20:16 < kanzure> "Are you seeing the analogy to co-working as a direct
analogy, I wasn't seeing any receptionist. But staff is going to be on
a volunteer basis, not a paid staff."
20:17 < kanzure> "We can't afford a paid staff, but we can't do that
right now. It has to be a large scale to get to ap aid staff."
20:17 < kanzure> "One thing that we have to remember is that everyone
starts off with cash."
20:17 < kanzure> "Your occassional user, your junior membership which
is what you were just talking about it, you can't get 24/7, you can
get here when there's some one else, your 24/7 senior membership. You
don't need staff."
20:18 < kanzure> "You have some device, someone here can make one. You
sign up on the web, you have a code, you have to punch in a code in,
then you know how many times this person to get in here. I wouldn't
want someone on the web to have a code."
20:18 < kanzure> "There needs to be a process."
20:18 < kanzure> "This basically boils down to a trusted person for
any visitor to come in and work on anything."
20:18 < ACProdigy> A process that is confirmed in-person
20:18 < ACProdigy> By an official AHS rep
20:18 < kanzure> "If someone wants to pull up and use the internet
connection, and they've got the passcode, that's fine if they aren't
doing anything illegal. Coming in here and using tools, or getting
into mischief, there must be a trusted person here at all times."
20:19 < kanzure> "Those visitors are.. the trusted person is in charge
of them, and is iresponsible for them ultimately."
20:19 < kanzure> "I might be a good example of one of those junior
memberships. I have been here for the past few weeks on Saturdays. I
don't think we put policies in place for putting other people in here
with those same values for contributing to the group who may not be
willing or able financially."
20:20 < kanzure> "Your method sounds perfect. You get very well
associated with that are trusted, and then you get privledges. You
don't get membership privledges with shallow touchy acquiantaces. You
have to be known first."
20:20 < kanzure> "Split merit system?"
20:20 < ACProdigy> Headed that wayQ!
20:21 -!- ACProdigy [~Tim at 70.114.232.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:21 < kanzure> "You don't want someone to just be able to pay money
and walk in. You also want a merit system where at least some people
in the group say that this person has shown the traits or behaviors
that we expect out of our membership. Length of time. Can someone not
randomly find your site and say, boy that looks interesting, come down
and be a member? How would that work?"
20:21 < kanzure> "Well, I just came here off the internet. That's me exactly."
20:22 < kanzure> "We are currently operating as the stakeholders, the
people who put in the lease to Les. We have to be present, we are
responsible for anything our visitors do. Right now, as we sit here,
literally speaking, he he he and she are responsible for all of you.
Owe my money. Les isn't responsible for anyone, except the four of
you."
20:22 < kanzure> "Now, from what I'm hearing, it sounds like a
division such as stake holders, causal membership that comes in and
out that doesn't have the high-privledge, and visitors, are all
acceptable. A visitor has a low level of access."
20:22 < kanzure> "In another hackerspace that I've been to, a visitor
must be tagged with someone else. What happened in that city, Chicago,
it very quickly became elitist. People were being locked out because
nobody would vouch for the new people. This is a probllem. You've got
to be leet to join the club."
20:23 < kanzure> "Noisebridge in San Francisco requires.."
20:23 < kanzure> "Has anyone been to Free Geek in Portland? They
started off with a non-profit model. They had a specific industry, it
was a community effort. If you still go there, it's very much of a
come on in and start working on, and we won't even care what your name
is. You can just start doing stuff."
20:23 < kanzure> "I don't think that as long as there is sufficient
supervision, I don't think that there's any problem with that. What
tools require a higher level of supervision, a training course, and
what would the starting be with visitors don't touch pretty much?"
20:24 < kanzure> "Les' plan for this space. Many of you might be
aware. This space has a plan. He has a plan for the way this space is
going to look. It's a beautiful plan. That office that he has will be
a reception break room. Next to it are going to be three bathrooms,
one with dishwashers and a shower and laundry. Then there's this
conference room. When it's cleaned and done, there's not tooo much
mayhem you can do."
20:25 < kanzure> "Something I want to point out, the co-working
example, one of the things that pisses me off about co-working, for me
to even check-out the space, a lot of coworking facility want me to
pay $30 to check it out. Part of it is that we need to be open to
having guests and like here's the space, here's the tool that you can
use. But you're not going to be using a table saw, or cutting some
drywall with the rtablesaw."
20:25 < kanzure> "We need to sit down with les and figure out what
tools need what kind of training and who's going to do that training.
Most people are competent enough to know that they can't use a table
saw, but there are going to be those random people who think it's
fine."
20:25 < kanzure> "But there are some people that need to be told."
20:26 < kanzure> "So, I'm typing up some of these things and I'm going
to read it back."
20:26 < kanzure> "The stakeholders are obviously a responsible member
with a stake in this space. At the moment it's primarily monetarily.
They are responsible for the keycodes and the alarm. And uh, don't
really have anything else, they form a decision making ability because
we have this responsibility that has been put down."
20:27 < kanzure> "And regardless of what we pick, like an LLC, it-
every member- we really do genuinely care what every member, and even
some random outside member, we want your feeddback. This is not about
a company, it's about building a community."
20:27 < kanzure> "
20:27 < kanzure> "We can't lock you out of this building, and we're
not going to try. Ultimately this will be a policy written by the
directors of the company. Essentially, right now, we need to get a
sense of right here whether or not you are closed or open. Can you
come through another member, or from the outside? The policy around
it."
20:28 < kanzure> "It was really nice by SXSW to just kind of show up.
They just kind of came by to see what things were about."
20:28 < kanzure> "Those in favor of a closed, invite system." Okay, nobody.
20:28 < kanzure> uh
20:28 < kanzure> "How about a slightly closed, system that allows
walk-in access" Vast-majority.
20:28 < kanzure> "Fully-open system that requires no other, just a
walk-in system with supervision."
20:29 < kanzure> insufficient resolution
20:29 < kanzure> "There is some danger in not being able to insure a
very open organization. Although based on other hackerspaces, I know
that it can be insured. It can be bought."
20:29 < kanzure> uh
20:29 < kanzure> is anyone still in here
20:29 -!- Irssi: #austinhackerspace: Total of 11 nicks [0 ops, 0
halfops, 0 voices, 11 normal]
20:30 < kanzure> "Can someone, yes or no, come to this organization
without knowing someone prior?"
20:31 < kanzure> "It's a little of each. As a new person, you would be
restricted to whoever is in the room. I was only talking about how you
find out and how you get into the organization. Step-by-step. The next
step is what you are talkikng about. You come in, you're random, you
come in, you want to maybe use the equipment. This is where whte
policy comes in. They say that you can't use the equipment without
talking for someone for an hour. That's the whole policy issue. How do
people get into the organization?"
20:31 < kanzure> "How do they get to use the equipment?"
20:31 < kanzure> "It's open."
20:32 < darkcontrast> i suspect we have lurkers :)
20:32 < kanzure> "Well, we have to know them and get to know if they
are capable of using the equipment. It's open in the sense that
someone just sees our website, like Steve, he's just like holy crap
there's a hackerspace in Austin and just show up, and we saw a guy out
of place outside, and literally that's how he showed up."
20:32 < kanzure> darkcontrast: i need to leave
20:32 < kanzure> Also the wifi seems to be broken.
20:33 < plars> if you're asking if anyone's still in the channel, yes
I'm on and off while trying to get my short clones to bed, and really
appreciating the transcript kanzure!
20:33 < darkcontrast> how's that?
20:33 < darkcontrast> wifi seems to be ok on mine and ustream laptop
20:33 < MattZeroSeven> Kanzure is fussing with his laptop, will be back in a min
20:33 < kanzure> actually..
20:33 < MattZeroSeven> back ;)
20:33 < kanzure> i need to go
20:33 < kanzure> blah
20:34 < darkcontrast> i can try to take over
20:34 < kanzure> yes please :)
20:35 < darkcontrast> i'm going to do more summarizing :)
20:36 < darkcontrast> moving on to discussing what membership dues
are, and what each mean
20:36 < darkcontrast> the fixed costs are:
20:36 < darkcontrast> $900/mo rent
20:36 < darkcontrast> first and last months' rent has been paid
20:37 < darkcontrast> every 6mo, ~$2k for insurance
20:37 < darkcontrast> ~$25/mo for AC in the offices
20:39 < darkcontrast> $1308/mo
20:39 < darkcontrast> based on estimates
20:40 < darkcontrast> noisebridge has ~300 active members, each paying
~$20-40/mo
20:40 -!- Tired2 [~no at 67-198-30-75.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined
#austinhackerspace
20:41 < darkcontrast> we estimate that there are approximately 30
interested, active parties in ahs
20:42 < darkcontrast> restrictions on the offices is 4 people max..
which translates to about $80/mo with AC
20:43 < Tired2> to rent an office?
20:43 < darkcontrast> does it make more sense to have 2 tiers of
members, or to "flatten" the fee?
20:43 < darkcontrast> Tired2: yes
20:43 < Tired2> thats not so bad
20:44 < darkcontrast> should we allow those outside endesign (and ahs)
to come in for laser cutting, prototyping, etc?
20:45 < Tired2> whats the monthly for non-offices?
20:45 < darkcontrast> les very much wants those within the endesign
space to continue to have access to the equipment within the space
(based on training, etc)
20:45 < darkcontrast> we're discussing what, if anything, we should
charge for non-office use
20:47 < Tired2> whats endesign?  (sorry, I'm almost up to speed)
20:48 < darkcontrast> endesign is the name of the larger space, the warehouse
20:48 < darkcontrast> there are several different groups within endesign
20:53 < Tired2> anyone building anything cool yet?
20:53 < darkcontrast> discussing within the member/due question, does
it make sense to have a sliding scale? does it make sense to have 2, 3
tiers?
20:54 < Tired2> is anyone else in this conversation, or just me?
20:55 < Tired2> I thought I came in in the middle
20:55 < darkcontrast> ACProdigy left a while ago :)
20:55 < Tired2> ah, well i guess I'll answer
20:55 < Tired2> I dont think I could pay 80/mo for access...
20:56 < darkcontrast> we'll post this entire conversation (i hope)
20:56 < Tired2> whats the fee for non-office members, who just might
want to cut something once a year?
20:56 < MattZeroSeven> It is being recorded
20:56 < plars> darkcontrast: that would be great, I'm only getting
bits and pieces
20:56 < darkcontrast> there's a consensus (i believe), that we do not
want to lock anyone out, just because they can't pay
20:57 < darkcontrast> the irc convo, not the ustream .. stream
20:57 < Tired2> well, assuming they contribute something of use
20:57 < darkcontrast> *irc convo is being recorded, ustream is not
20:57 < MattZeroSeven> Oops, my bad
20:57 < plars> Tired2: I'm kinda in the same boat as you, I'm not near
enough, nor do I have enough spare time that I could be there often
enough, but paying a fee to use a few things that I don't have access
to otherwise, coming to occasional events, etc would be very appealing
20:57 < darkcontrast> right.. we're discussing what makes a guest
different than a non-office member
20:58 -!- WebGuest [~fn-javach at 70.114.144.100] has joined #austinhackerspace
20:58 < darkcontrast> this is my concern, that i never want anyone to
not have access, because they don't have some cash
20:58 < Tired2> I did a business model like this in the past, and the
numbers were hard to add up... I was going larger scale, with machines
and classes and such, but I was planning on a module based fee...
20:58 -!- WebGuest [~fn-javach at 70.114.144.100] has quit [Client Quit]
20:59 < Tired2> so, maybe a member gets access + storage + an hour or
so per month on the cnc's
20:59 < Tired2> maybe 'bring your own consumables' or something, i dunno
20:59 < darkcontrast> we haven't even really considered how we're
going to pay for anything beyond office space
21:00 < Tired2> Considered sponsorships?
21:00 < Tired2> local Universities, businesses...
21:00 -!- TheHast [~gilbert_e at 70.114.144.100] has joined #austinhackerspace
21:00 < Tired2> maybe down the road a bit
21:01 < darkcontrast> we are very aggressively seeking donations and
grants, and it's very likely that we'll be holding fundraisers,
classes, etc to raise extra money
21:01 < darkcontrast> we may or may not have some things in the works
already (cash as well as supplies)
21:01 < Tired2> you should offer courses on the cnc and such, charge
$40 or something, and its like a license to use it
21:02 < darkcontrast> absolutely
21:02 < darkcontrast> martin definitely has classes planned
21:03 < darkcontrast> martin has set up a business bank account with
merchant clearing
21:04 < darkcontrast> does anyone want to use paypal to pay any dues?
21:05 < darkcontrast> e-check, cash, check are all free.. visa/MC costs us 2.8%
21:05 < Tired2> go for a cash discount like liqour stores do
21:06 < darkcontrast> yes, the cash discount was discussed
21:06 < Tired2> or a 'processing fee' works
21:06 < darkcontrast> but, because this is a "suggested donation", is an fyi
21:06 < Tired2> ah.. yes.
21:07 < Tired2> what equipment things are ya'll looking for?
21:07 < darkcontrast> Tired2: are you on our mailing list, etc?
21:07 < Tired2> any type of stuff in particular?
21:07 < Tired2> nope, dont think so
21:07 < darkcontrast> we're not looking for anything specifically..
21:07 -!- WebGuest [~fn-javach at cpe-24-28-77-36.austin.res.rr.com] has
joined #austinhackerspace
21:08 < darkcontrast>
http://groups.google.com/group/austin-hacker-space/topics?hl=en
21:08 -!- WebGuest is now known as Anvilx
21:08 < darkcontrast> is our main discussion list.. we also have
facebook group, twitter, etc
21:08 < darkcontrast> http://austinhackerspace.org
21:09 < Tired2> yea, i saw the site
21:09 -!- ChanServ changed the topic of #austinhackerspace to: Welcome
to the Austin Hackerspace IRC channel - Join us Tue Apr 13 at 7pm to
discuss our legal formation and membership details! Wiki:
http://austinhackerspace.org Mailing list:
http://groups.google.com/group/austin-hacker-space/topics?hl=en
21:10 < darkcontrast> please join! come by!
21:10 < darkcontrast> a lot of us will be here until 10 tonight.. i'll
be here until 11 myself
21:11 < Tired2> yea, I'm trying to keep up with it for now, maybe come
by in the future
21:11 -!- ChanServ changed the topic of #austinhackerspace to: Welcome
to the Austin Hackerspace IRC channel - Join us Tue Apr 13 at 7pm to
discuss our legal formation and membership details! Wiki:
http://austinhackerspace.org Mailing list:
http://groups.google.com/group/austin-hacker-space/topics?hl=en We
will be here until 10pm tonight!
21:11 < Tired2> busy time for me currently, but it will settle down
21:11 < Tired2> plus I'm in San Marcos, so its a 30 min drive
21:12 < plars> yeah, round rock here, about 30 min. from me as well
21:13 < Tired2> so, is there a communal junk pile planned?
21:17 < darkcontrast> it depends on what you mean by junk :)
21:17 < darkcontrast> eg, we don't want old crt's that we'll have to
pay a recycling fee on
21:18 < darkcontrast> but an individual may want them.. honestly, we
haven't really discussed it
21:18 < darkcontrast> for now, the best bet is to hit up the mailing list
21:19 < Tired2> cool
21:20 < Tired2> got a scope and function gen already?
21:22 < darkcontrast> i don't believe so
21:22 < darkcontrast> i've got a couple cheap usb scopes
21:25 < Tired2> cool
21:26 < Tired2> ill keep it in mind if i make it out
21:26 < Tired2> i have at least an extra, someone would want it
21:26 < Tired2> maybe 2
21:27 < darkcontrast> even if you bring something out, you retain
ownership, can dictate how/when it's used, etc
21:28 < Tired2> cool
21:29 < darkcontrast> so to recap:
21:30 < darkcontrast> we have to decided to form an LLC, with martin,
matt, and mike initial stakeholders (with a board to be decided).. we
may or may not seek to gain 501c3 (or some other nonprofit status) at
a later time
21:31 -!- genehacker
[genehacker at wireless-128-62-36-212.public.utexas.edu] has joined
#austinhackerspace
21:31 < darkcontrast> currently, there are two membership levels:
stakeholders, who have office space and 24/7 access at $75/mo
21:31 < darkcontrast> there is also a associate membership level at a
suggested cost of $40/mo - which is negotiable based on circumstances
21:32 < darkcontrast> guests are free, but will need a member with
them at all times
21:33 < darkcontrast> martin is posting more details on the wiki at
http://www.austinhackerspace.org/events/generalmeeting/04132010
21:36 < TheHast> What do you think about offsetting membership costs
with material donations/helpfulness to the community?  Where people
just interested in making stuff for themselves will pay full
membership, while people who focus their time on others get a reduced
membership?
21:37 < TheHast> And I imagine that said usefulness should be awarded
by the community, like voted upon by everyone.
21:37 < Tired2> that might hard to pull off
21:37 < TheHast> yha, now that I actually think about it
21:38 < TheHast> I can see members getting angry that they weren't picked.
21:38 < Tired2> yea
21:38 < darkcontrast> we did talk about the fact that donating time,
work, etc, could qualify someone for membership.. but my concern is
that we will need to determine who and how we determine this.. to make
it objective
21:38 < Tired2> i was curious on software...
21:39 < Tired2> what is everyone using for cad/cam these days?
21:39 < Tired2> that is affordable that is
21:39 < darkcontrast> it would either need a very large vote, eg, it's
unanimous that this person has donated so much time it's stupid that
they're not a member.. or, this is specifically, objectively what's
required
21:39 < darkcontrast> or both
21:39 < TheHast> yha...
21:41 < Tired2> there should be a 'wanted items' list or something
21:41 < darkcontrast> that's a discussion for next time
21:41 < Tired2> some are obvious, but im sure some are not
21:41 < darkcontrast> i believe there's a wishlist
21:41 < Tired2> yea... thats the word :)
21:41 < TheHast> We could set it at a specific cost per hour, like $1
off your membership each hour you help someone else, and the time
would be signed off by the person you help.
21:42 < darkcontrast> http://www.austinhackerspace.org/wishlist
21:42 < Tired2> still wont pay the bills though
21:42 < TheHast> sorry if I'm typing so slowing, space bar is gone...
21:42 < TheHast> have to use the little button nub under it atm.
21:43 < TheHast> as far as the wishlist goes...
21:43 < Tired2> add keyboard to the wishlist
21:43 < TheHast> lol... I'm getting a new one tomorrow (it's on my laptop...)
21:44 < darkcontrast> personally, i'd rather not have this turn into a
big paperwork thing, but barter is a very big part of what we're doing
21:44 < TheHast> I'll brb getting a keybord
21:44 < Martyn> WOW
21:44 < Martyn> Does anyone on the IRC channel want to be an associate member?
21:45 < Tired2> not currently :-/
21:45 < Tired2> I like the idea though
21:45 < Tired2> just not in need currently
21:45 < Tired2> I do want to help out though, cause it sounds like a good thing
21:46 < Tired2> I have this thing where I keep stuff I feel is useful
if its free/cheap
21:46 < Tired2> cause I know someone will want it
21:46 < TheHast> Keybord!
21:47 < Tired2> i.e. keyboards, mice, lcd monitors with bad backlights, etc
21:47 < Tired2> some more useful than others
21:47 < Tired2> but some very nice still
21:47 < TheHast> Ok, I saw on the wishlist the need for some cat5
cable, have you ever looked at a scrap yard for it?
21:47 < darkcontrast> especially right now (and i hope forever), want
people to come by if they have any slight interest at all (without
cost)
21:48 < darkcontrast> i don't know if anyone has even looked at the wishlist :)
21:48 < Tired2> i did
21:49 < Tired2> I have some old SGI computers, but they dont run
anything but old ass irix
21:49 < Tired2> which makes them not worth the power they take
21:49 < darkcontrast> i would bet we can come up with quite a bit of
cat5 if we made a campaign for it
21:50 < TheHast> I'm just saying, my entire house I wired with cat5/6
cable we got from a metal scrap yard up north.  We paid the weight in
copper for it.
21:50 < darkcontrast> we can certainly emulate sgi hardware, or irix,
but quite possibly we could have someone interested in the hardware
itself
21:50 < darkcontrast> cat5 with insulation and everything? :)
21:50 < Tired2> yea, they sell it by weight
21:50 < TheHast> It's not low quality/old either.  We found that
building companies dumped their extra wired there all the time.
21:50 < darkcontrast> you could certainly pay for a membership by
selling cheap cat5 to our members!
21:51 < Tired2> thats where I buy motors and stuff
21:51 < Tired2> junk yard :P
21:51 < darkcontrast> ahhh i see
21:51 < TheHast> AMP, or whatever it's called now?
21:51 < Tired2> the one i go to is in San marcos
21:52 < TheHast> yha, I buy a lot at scrap yards.
21:53 < TheHast> are there any computers at the building now/do we want any?
21:56 < Anvilx> @The hast We have that old laptop from james. If we
can just find the charger...
21:58 < TheHast> well thats useless
21:59 < Tired2> what brand?
21:59 < darkcontrast> we have some computers, but nothing as far as servers
21:59 < TheHast> some crappy old IBM laptop with most of the buttons broken
21:59 < Tired2> what do you need to serve really?
22:00 < TheHast> we were going to use it as a shoddy games server at our school.
22:00 < darkcontrast> there's been talk of setting up a rack.. various
desktops have been promised.. various vps's available from various
people.. again, the mailing list is by far the best way to connect
right now :)
22:03 < TheHast> if we play our frys ads right, we can get a "meh"
computer for around 75-80 bucks.
22:03 < TheHast> talking mid-range lga775
22:03 < TheHast> or i5 or whatever they are calling it
22:03 -!- darkcontrast [~darkcontr at 71.22.109.98] has quit [Quit: KVIrc
3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/]
22:05 -!- darkcontrast [~darkcontr at 71.22.109.98] has joined #austinhackerspace
22:05 -!- Martyn [~martinb at 71.22.109.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
22:06 < TheHast> Is anyone project related here right now?
22:06 < darkcontrast> we've talked quite a bit about collective
buying.. especially from mouser/digikey/etc
22:06 < darkcontrast> project related?
22:07 < TheHast> ohh didnt see that you re-joined
22:07 < darkcontrast> haha.. yeah, i just learned a new hotkey that
closes the app
22:08 < TheHast> If you press alt-f4 you get $20 in your paypall account.
22:08 < darkcontrast> it's a mac, but.. :)
22:12 < Tired2> which key is alt?
22:15 < TheHast> So..... Lets say theoretically of course, that a
certain kid at the ripe old age of 16 that is good with tools,
computers, projects ect. wants to be a part of this.  What would you
say?  I understand that one would be skeptical at the least, but I'm
sure you'd find me to be at least (somewhat) mature and a productive
member of this tinkering society come time.  This is all about someone
that doesn't exist by the way...
22:15 -!- Anvilx [~fn-javach at cpe-24-28-77-36.austin.res.rr.com] has
quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:19 -!- MattZeroSeven [~Adium at 71.22.109.98] has left #austinhackerspace []
22:21 < TheHast> I'll take the quiet as a "I don't know we'll see if
we like you when you get here" response.
22:21 < darkcontrast> we're still kind of figuring that out.. but
unanimously, we want this to be open.. and personally, unless the
person is obviously destructive, everyone is going te be welcome (with
appropriate supervision/training) regardless of membership
22:22 < darkcontrast> haha, no sorry, things are kind of breaking up here
22:23 < TheHast> It's all good , you at the building?
22:23 < darkcontrast> in a practical sense, someone needs to kind of
vouch you in.. but my example was, after a couple email exchanges (and
no other verification) we had some people from the toronto space come
by and do some soldering/teaching.. i am absolutely against being some
elitist club
22:24 < darkcontrast> we're still around, but i think we're about done
for tonight
22:26 < TheHast> Thats cool, when do you think I can come by and check it out?
22:27 < darkcontrast> we'll be here: thurs at 7pm, most of fri, all day sat
22:29 < TheHast> Cool, I'm booked Friday (all day)/Saturday morning so
hopefully thurs or sat.  Also that Anvilx guy is my friend, he'll
probably be by as well with me.
22:30 < TheHast> I go to St. Andrews school, which is down the road a little.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
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