<div dir="ltr">Paul your much more accurate in your assessment and you put much more time into it. <div><br></div><div>I also agree with myself the fundamental problem exists, there is no easy way for governments to fund innovation using traditional grant mechanisms. There is also no easy to use cloud based software to help. I have been doing innovation challenges recently and find them intellectually stimulating. In one case netted me 10 grand. <a href="http://www.innocentive.com">www.innocentive.com</a> </div><div><br></div><div>They are still missing the idea to prototype stage competitions that I was interested in fostering with spacegambit (hate that name) </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 3:01 AM, Silence Dogood <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">using blockchains for internal expenditure tracking would be interesting.</div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Michael Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">"<span style="font-size:12.8px"><span>Every iota of every fund was tracked."<br><br></span>Really? So that satellite simulator software project -- somewhere, there are timesheets with hours logged, for the $20,000 open-source project with no code checked in anywhere I can find?</span><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>"</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">The reporting requirements exceeded the value of the contract by an order of magnitude."<br><br>"Order of magnitude" = 10x. You're saying it would have cost $5 million to meet the costs of the requirements reporting for spending $500,000?<br><br>"</span>I didn't have the balls to quit my job to run it."</div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">At various times, you've told us that you did all the work, that Jerry ended up with all of it, that you finally gave it all to an unnamed friend who used to work at DARPA (hm, we have to add revolving doors to our suspicions?)<br><br>I see spreadsheets shared to me that had 4 full-time-equivalent salaries budgeted. $16,000 per month for those. As someone who has been his own main donor, and who has funded it all out of a day job, and has only able to eke out a bit of progress now and then, I'd probably strangle my own mother to have a situation where I'd have that much freedom to allocate that much money, while on salary for two years.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span><span style="font-size:12.8px">"</span>Jerry felt like he had liability so he saw making decisions with no group input as necessary to his financial well being."<br><br></span>Very interesting way to put it. And how is his financial well-being these days? Any nice new equipment at Maui Makers? Any investments in Maui beachfront property?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><span><br clear="all"><div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br></span><div class="gmail_quote"><span>On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 12:28 PM, cole santos <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cksantos85@gmail.com" target="_blank">cksantos85@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></span><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Every iota of every fund was tracked. Im sure some accountant has it somewhere. Its why i didn't get all our projects funding(most didnt). The reporting requirements exceeded the value of the contract by an order of magnitude. In almost all cases each project bit off more than it could chew with funds avail. On the admin side, I got this grant funded under a friends lcc because no one else could get it done. I didn't have the balls to quit my job to run it. So I pushed it on the founder of our local makerspace. For better or worse he didnt really want to do it, saw it as a burdensome thing. Because of that they did not spend the money to create a lasting program. The whole thing was very complicated in the beginning, but once the contract was awarded to a sole proprietorship, the mojo flew out the door. Jerry felt like he had liability so he saw making decisions with no group input as necessary to his financial well being. Most likely scared of being sued by disgruntled makers who complain alot...</div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span>"<span style="font-size:12.8px">I don't necessarily subscribe to Michael's statement "</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">every iota of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can be recorded</span></span><span style="font-size:12.8px">"."<br><br>Let me be literal: "Can be" is not "will be" or "must be". It's just the capability. Used to the degree that's called for.<br><br>And here's what that literal requirement came out of, more so than the SpaceGAMBIT debacle: going to Kenya on a mission to set up a hacking-themed non-profit. You know, Kenya? Where corruption is a way of life? The high life, for the big winners of that game?<br><br>I went to Kenya with an idea in mind: femtosatellites that can now be built for around $100 in parts cost could be great educational tools for getting kids excited about "bare-metal programming", instrumentation and electronics generally. With only ~$10,000, I might supply 100 East African schools with an actual spacecraft. (Stretching the definition of spacecraft a little.) I even brought along a KickSat Sprite development kit to demonstrate to people. I had plans to make 20 more kits back home, kits I'd need put together myself, for $2,000 in fab costs and parts.<br><br>But I also went to dip a toe in the water. What would it really be like, trying to do that? I didn't want it to be one-time-only. I didn't want it to be fire-and-forget. I wanted to build an organization there. I had longer-term goals, going beyond these femtosats. And that meant figuring out how to keep the money coming.<br><br>Before I went, I spoke about my plans with a guy here in Tokyo who'd been to Kenya several times in search of organizations to fund -- and in particular, to learn how to responsibly spend the donations he was collecting from members of his Tokyo society. I told him what I wanted to do. He just looked at me, furrowed his brow, and said nothing.</span><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I came back from Kenya with quite a few stories. I told him these stories. He nodded. He said, "I met with over 100 non-profits and community-based organizations in Kenya. I found only five I felt I could trust."<br><br>This was demoralizing -- so far beyond my own merely-anecdotal evidence that I couldn't deny what the major challenge was: becoming tightfisted, suspicious, and controlling. It's not my nature. But I am software engineer. (Or was.) Could it be automated to any degree?</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>And there was hope, suddenly: I exchanged email with a Kenyan database analyst and admin who'd done work for such organizations. She said the ones that managed to not piss off and alienate donors -- the ones that could survive and execute on a strategy that amounted to more than just finding yet another one of those donors that's born every minute -- were the ones that installed down-to-the-penny accounting systems and down-to-the-half-hour accountability frameworks.<br><br>I want a framework that CAN scale down to the resolution of a penny because, in places where pennies matter, there are always people who will try to rob you of them. And if you lose a significant amount of money to internal corruption, enough to think of taking the theft to court, well, good luck with that. Because then you're up against /external/ corruption. The judge is always the thief's nephew's best friend's father-in-law's uncle, or else can be had for a bribe.<br><br></span><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span><br clear="all"><div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br></span><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Paul Szymkowiak <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paulszym@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulszym@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Having been involved in the "hackerspace space program" and the subsequent "Space GAMBIT" projects being discussed here from the beginning, and also having been a moderator for previous interactions Michael Turner has had on mailing lists associated with these efforts, I'd like to add a few comments.<div><br></div><div><div>Sam, I have also worked with a number of philanthropist groups, and I agree it is possible - for certain types of projects in certain contexts - to remain focused on an outcome and operate predominantly on trust. However, I would argue that this often relies on existing organisational structures and constitutions, either implicit or explicit, and that scaling this is possible but often problematic (in my experience, most cases fail).<br><br></div><div>In the case of Space GAMBIT, we attempted to form a globally operating entity (or network of) based on a significant founding grant under a highly regulated set of industry rules and regulations. I think that makes this context significantly different and the associated problems much more wicked. If we're to contemplate further space-program efforts within the global maker & hacker hobbyist communities, we need to learn from the mistakes made here and find a better way forward.</div></div><div><br></div><div>I think Michael's request to discuss accountability frameworks is a completely reasonable proposal, and in light of the serious failings in the execution of the Space GAMBIT effort, completely justified. In the past, I've critiqued Michael for personal attacks, but I'm not seeing that in this case: I'm seeing what I consider quite reasonable critique: and given that I'm one of the people that critique is directed at, I welcome it.</div><div><br></div><div>From my perspective, Michael's request is an important and valid one in the light of Space GAMBIT, and so-far I haven't seen anything in the way of constructive response. Does that mean that no such accountability framework(s) exist in the hacker/ maker community, and that we're all operating on systems based on good will, trust and personal integrity?</div><div><br></div><div>If not, I'd welcome folks sharing their experiences with suitable frameworks they've found workable. If so, I'd echo Michael's concern that when donors are contributing significant funds, good will, trust and personal integrity aren't enough to support such endeavours, and in the case of Space GAMBIT, failed horribly. It's completely justifiable and I think helpful, to look back on the mistake, critique it and learn from it so that we can avoid making it again.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't necessarily subscribe to Michael's statement "<span style="font-size:12.8px">every iota of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can be recorded</span>". There are various ways in which "every iota" and "every penny" might be problematic, however I think the general idea of tracking spending, revenue, effort, assets (including intellectual property) is completely reasonable - in fact, needed - and there should be ways to do this transparently and simply as a natural part of doing work on the project.</div><div><br></div><div>In some ways, we're looking at how open communities can operate in a way true to our ethics and principles, within required legislative structures that are arguably based on dated western ideals of organisations/ legal entities. We need supporting structures and systems that allow us to operate legally and with manageable risk within the existing overarching system(s).</div><div><br></div><div>If anything, Michael has been somewhat charitable in his critique. When Michael says "<span style="font-size:12.8px">the dodge took the form of locating all authority over spending that $500,000 in a tiny handful of people who operated in a pretty opaque fashion", it would be more accurate to say that, once the funding landed, "in the hands of a single person".</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">That was never the intention of the project, went against everything the group</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">had specifically </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">worked hard on over many months on the grant application, and ultimately destroyed the global collaborative nature of the project. </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">Once that occurred, there seemed to be no way back from that fatal mistake, and that cast the actions of the individual involved in an increasingly negative light. It was easy to paint a picture </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">alleging</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">corruption, although I suspect it was predominantly a mix of overbearing control-freak personality and personal financial fear.</span></div><div><br></div><div>This is an important community failure that I for one am keen to learn from, never repeat, and find better ways of undertaking in the future.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><br><br>Paul<span><font color="#888888"><br> <br>Paul Szymkowiak <br><br></font></span></div></div></div></div><div><div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On 27 May 2016 at 08:43, Sam Tobin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sam.tobin@nrsnz.com" target="_blank">sam.tobin@nrsnz.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Diminishing return guys/girls...<div><br></div><div>I've worked on large ESA projects with massive overheads and scrutiny, and on tiny garage-based projects. Accountability, workplans etc are tools... and as always one needs the right tools for the task at hand.</div><div><br></div><div>I've also worked for a philanthropist group, and (might be unique, but maybe not)... they were mostly interested in outcomes, not details. Simply put, the approach was to trust the person/group, check outcomes, repeat with person/group at larger $ scale if good.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><span><font color="#888888"><div>Sam</div></font></span><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 27 May 2016 at 05:08, Michael Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I'm sure that's been your experience, Matt. Subjectively, it has also been mine. I've chafed under accountability frameworks in almost every organization I've ever been in. They've always felt like a "massive, worthless drain."<br><br>Here's the thing, though: the ones that didn't have them, fell apart. Sometimes in very embarrassing ways. And one thing I've learned in trying to work with nonprofits in some parts of the world is that if you ask for accountability, and get only indignation in response, you're better off turning away and not bothering with those people ever again. They are on the take. I don't want to be like them. When potential donors say, "I need to look at how you spend money," I want to be in a position throw all the verification at them that they could possibly want, and more. They'll want to know that the level of parasitism in my organization is acceptably low. How can I blame them?<br><br>Permit a biological metaphor: a fair amount of any creature's metabolism goes into supporting its immune system. It's a lot. It's a massive, worthless drain, actually. Until there's an infection, or a cluster of mutant cells that might turn into a malignant tumor. <br><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div>Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Silence Dogood <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">In my experience, working for a space agency, people who are interested in "<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">setting up a framework in which every iota of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can be recorded.</span>" are usually a massive worthless drain on the project and very interested in inserting themselves in places they have no earthly business being, just to justify their continued leeching upon the project. And, more often then not, they cost more than they benefit anyone... not just in fiduciary cost, but in time, complexity, and general nuisance factor introduced into the day to day operational workflow of the group working on the project.<div><br></div><div>-Matt</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Michael Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Matt, in my experience of hackerspaces, there's lots of bitter argument by people who aren't contributing much of anything, much of the time. I tried. Eventually, I walked. I contributed time, money, equipment, project ideas ... but ultimately, I walked. I felt pretty alienated by know-it-all attitudes and a kind of knee-jerk anti-authoritarianism that prefers unproductive chaos to reasonable order.<br><br>So, again:<span><br><br><span style="font-size:12.8px">I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some point, and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd like to hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up such frameworks.</span><br><div><br></div><div><br></div></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span><br clear="all"><div><div>Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br></span><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:08 AM, Silence Dogood <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">In open source, committers walk and everyone else talks... and is promptly ignored. If you think something can be done better, do it better. Leadership is an act of demonstrating a better path forward. Decrying folks is not productive. We know success when we see it, everything else is just more of the same.<div><br></div><div>So, stop bitching, and go make a difference.</div><div><br></div><div>-Matt</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Michael Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">"<span style="font-size:12.8px">You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've sent </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">has been a slash and burn."<br></span><br>I'm destructive? What's more destructive: criticism of corruption, or corruption?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><span><br clear="all"><div><div>Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br></span><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 12:57 AM, David <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ainut@hiwaay.net" target="_blank">ainut@hiwaay.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've sent <br>
<br>
<div>On 05/18/2016 11:02 AM, cole santos
wrote:has been a slash and burn.<br>
<br>
David Merchant<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div><div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">Lol you just don't get it troll<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On May 18, 2016 1:03 AM, "Michael Turner"
<<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">"<span style="font-size:12.8px">Mike no one
wanted to work with you because of emails like you just
sent."<br>
</span><br>
I thought there should be more openness and oversight, and
so nobody wanted to work with me? Interesting. I hadn't
realized that openness and oversight were such unpopular
things when spending taxpayers money. Unless, of course,
you're a taxpayer. Are you?<br>
<br>
"<span style="font-size:12.8px">Since I wrote the grant, and
got the Corp formed, and followed through until the
project start, I think it's ok moraly."<br>
</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
I always assumed an education in philosophy would acquaint
a person with the difference between morals and ethics.
You learn something every day, I guess.</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>Regards,<br>
Michael Turner<br>
Executive Director<br>
Project Persephone<br>
K-1 bldg 3F<br>
7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>
Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90)
5203-8682</a><br>
<a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
<a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
<br>
"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
looking outward together in the same direction." --
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:48 AM,
cole santos <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cksantos85@gmail.com" target="_blank">cksantos85@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">Mike no one wanted to work with you because
of emails like you just sent. We are amateurs hacking
it. Ps haesh was my project and it was somewhat a
sweetheart deal. I had to choose between a project or
a job. Since I wrote the grant, and got the Corp
formed, and followed through until the project start,
I think it's ok moraly. The other projects were all
random submissions. The principal aka jerry got
overwhelmed and didn't even really want the job. I
kinda forced it on him as I had a full time job.
Reality is not nearly as sensational as u wish.</p>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On May 16, 2016 9:07 PM,
"Michael Turner" <<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">First things first:</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
I'm interested in setting up a framework in
which every iota of effort on funded
projects can be tracked, and every penny of
spending can be recorded. I'm interested in
this because I'll need donors at some point,
and donors typically require high
transparency -- and results. I'd like to
hear from makerspace leaders who've been
successful at setting up such frameworks.<br>
<br>
Now, about the "drama":<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 17,
2016 at 2:51 AM, gmc <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gmc@hackerspaces.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:gmc@hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">gmc@hackerspaces.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Yay, drama. It's what hackers are
best at! Bye bye mailing list.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Clearly, some disillusionment and
malaise has set in.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hackerspaces.org? No blog update
since just about two years ago.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Interesting critique there, though:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <a href="https://flux.hackerspaces.org/2014/01/19/diversity-and-the-hacker-scene/" target="_blank">https://flux.hackerspaces.org/2014/01/19/diversity-and-the-hacker-scene/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Drama will never go away permanently.
Sometimes the only way to quell drama is
with rules.<br>
<br>
If you're going to have rules, you can
try counting on ideas like legitimizing
all decisions through the rule of
relying on consensus (it always breaks
down). Or on rules set by some
"benevolent oligarchy" (the "oligarchs"
often get tired of arbitration and
moderation, and go missing.) There are a
variety of other dodges of the basic
responsibility of collective governance,
which is tedious and stressful compared
to making things.<br>
<br>
In the case of SpaceGAMBIT, the dodge
took the form of locating all authority
over spending that $500,000 in a tiny
handful of people who operated in a
pretty opaque fashion. In at least one
case, the opacity was defended by a
SpaceGAMBIT principal in terms of
DARPA's tight regulations about the
release of information. When I asked for
chapter and verse of those regulations,
there was no answer. Wait: you're saying
you got money from a government agency
that doesn't tell taxpayers the basis on
which it allows awarded organizations to
release information about how taxpayer
money is being spent? Interesting.<br>
<br>
Given the nature of the political
differences over taking money from
DARPA, I can see a reason for not
identifying winning teams when the
awards went out. It might have been
defensible as a way to protect the
awarded teams from harassment by those
who were most loudly opposed to that
money, and to what any hackerspace group
taking that money symbolized to them. <br>
<br>
The problem was: opacity could enable
sweetheart deals. Waste. Lax controls.<br>
<br>
And what do we have at the end?<br>
<br>
Examples:<br>
<br>
$20,000 for an open source satellite
mission design project that apparently
never checked anything into a repo.<br>
<br>
The HAESH project, which, by some odd
coincidence, was based in Hawaii. (And
apparently on Maui.)That was
statistically unlikely, especially when
you consider that the main SpaceGAMBIT
executive exulted at one point about how
great it was to work internationally,
not just in America, and not just in his
tiny home region of -- you guessed it --
Hawaii. Maui, in fact.<br>
<br>
How about the thousands of dollars for
the open source Make-a-Space Kit? It had
a laudable goal.<br>
<br>
"The goal of this project is to complete
the content--finalize the entire kit--
and then create a turn-key online
template which a new or existing space
can use to instantiate
the online project management, assign
specific tasks to board members, track
accountability,
and effectively communicate about the
status of the activities as the space is
launched and
formed."<br>
<br>
Where is it? Dead links on the
SpaceGAMBIT site. Try to get something
back from the Wayback Machine?
Unsuccessful.<br>
<br>
How about that Asteroid Badge? <br>
<br>
<a href="https://github.com/CuriosityHacked/Learning/wiki/SpaceAsteroids" target="_blank">https://github.com/CuriosityHacked/Learning/wiki/SpaceAsteroids</a><br>
<br>
There's something in there that looks
like a rough draft of Make-a-Space Kit,
but certainly nothing that looks
"finalized."<br>
<br>
Thousands of dollars spent on those two
projects. And this is all there is to
show for it?<br>
<br>
It's what happens when there's no
openness or accountability, and when
money can be spent without significant
oversight by a small group of people.<br>
<br>
So, to repeat my request:<br>
<br>
I'm interested in setting up a framework
in which every iota of effort on funded
projects can be tracked, and every penny
of spending can be recorded. I'm
interested in this because I'll need
donors at some point, and donors
typically require high transparency --
and results. I'd like to hear from
makerspace leaders who've been
successful at setting up such
frameworks.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
Michael Turner<br>
Executive Director<br>
Project Persephone<br>
K-1 bldg 3F<br>
7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>
Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81
(3) 6890-1140</a><br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81
(3) 6890-1158</a><br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81
(90) 5203-8682</a><br>
<a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
<a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
<br>
"Love does not consist in gazing at each
other, but in looking outward together
in the same direction." -- Antoine de
Saint-Exupéry<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span>On 16
May 2016 18:26:04 CEST, Michael
Turner <<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span>On
Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:55
AM, cole santos <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cksantos85@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:cksantos85@gmail.com" target="_blank">cksantos85@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Actually
we took the DarPA money
and the project was a
great success. <a href="http://Www.spacegambit.Com" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://Www.spacegambit.Com" target="_blank">Www.spacegambit.Com</a></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A great success for
some people, I suppose.
In a certain sense.<br>
<br>
I pick a project at
random.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/" target="_blank">http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/</a></div>
</span>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span>Funding:
$20,000<br>
<br>
SpaceGAMBIT claim:
only open source
projects will be
funded.
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Reality: well, ta!
ke a
look.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/" target="_blank">http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/</a></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Excuse:
"schedules slip".
OK, but you can't
check in any code,
anywhere?</div>
<div><br>
<a href="https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source" target="_blank"></a><a href="https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source" target="_blank">https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source</a><br>
<br>
At least, that's
the only repo I
could find.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There's nothing in
it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was largely
because of my concerns
about openness, clear
communication,
democratic process,
and leadership
accountability that I
decided to have
nothing further to do
with SpaceGAMBIT. This
was after feeling
enthusiastic about it
and even defending it
against what I thought
was unfair criticism.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Really, I'd prefer
to have been wrong in
my suspicions.</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>Regards,<br>
Michael Turner<br>
Executive
Director<br>
Project
Persephone<br>
K-1 bldg 3F<br>
7-2-6
Nishishinjuku<br>
Shinjuku-ku
Tokyo 160-0023<br>
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81
(3) 6890-1140</a><br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81
(3) 6890-1158</a><br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81
(90) 5203-8682</a><br>
<a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
<a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
<br>
"Love does not
consist in
gazing at each
other, but in
looking outward
together in the
same direction."
-- Antoine de
Saint-Exupéry</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
On Monday, May
16, 2016,
Michael P Weber
II <<a href="mailto:michaelweberii@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:michaelweberii@gmail.com" target="_blank">michaelweberii@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On
Mon, May 16,
2016 at 3:05
AM, Michael
Turner<br>
<<a></a><a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Whether
intentional or
not, the
choice of
watercress
could be very<br>
>
space-relevant.<br>
><br>
> (1)
Biosphere II
saw the direct
participation
of the late
Roy Walford,
MD, a<br>
> pioneer
self-experimenter
in CRON
(calorie
restriction
with optimal<br>
>
nutrition) as
a strategy for
life
extension.
This research
interested the<br>
> Biosphere
II organizers
because, in
feeding
long-duration
space mission<br>
>
participants,
fewer calories
eaten means,
to a good
first
approximation,<br>
> less mass
for the
ecological
life support
system,
leading to
lower mission<br>
> cost,
etc.<br>
><br>
> (2)
Research into
how CRON
appears to
increase
lifespans (in
part by<br>
> reducing
cancer risk --
a big issue in
space travel
because of
space<br>
>
radiation)
reveals that
it's more
about protein
restriction
than about<br>
> calorie
restriction
per se.<br>
><br>
> (3)
Further
research has
suggested that
it's
specifically
reduction of<br>
>
methionine
intake that is
the main
driver of life
extension in
CRON (hence,<br>
>
presumably,
lower cancer
risk);<br>
><br>
> (4)
High-glycine
diets sop up
excess
methionine.
(To be sure:
methionine is<br>
> an
essential
amino acid;
glycine is
not. But it
seems that
with
methionine,<br>
> you can
get too much
of a good
thing.)<br>
><br>
> (5)
Watercress is
very high in
glycine, quite
low in
methionine.
Watercress<br>
> might be
ideal for
offsetting the
cancer risks
from space
radiation in<br>
>
long-duration
space
missions.<br>
><br>
> I think a
good next step
in such work
would be to
try to
optimize
watercress<br>
>
production in
an aeroponic
rather than a
hydroponic
style.
Hydroponics is<br>
> great,
highly
productive,
but ... water
is heavy.
Aeroponics can
give you<br>
> much of
the benefit of
hydroponics
but with a
fraction of
the equipment<br>
> mass.
Aeroponics
should be more
adaptable to
low-g and
microgravity<br>
>
environments
since it's not
gravity-dependent
-- it's
basically just
the<br>
>
deposition of
nutrient-enriched
mist droplets
on plant
roots.
Aeroponics may<br>
> have
gotten its
start from
NASA funding.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Michael
Turner<br>
> Executive
Director<br>
> Project
Persephone<br>
> K-1 bldg
3F<br>
> 7-2-6
Nishishinjuku<br>
>
Shinjuku-ku
Tokyo 160-0023<br>
> Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>
> Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>
> Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br>
> <a></a><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
><br>
> "Love
does not
consist in
gazing at each
other, but in
looking
outward<br>
> together
in the same
direction." --
Antoine de
Saint-Exupéry<br>
><br>
> On Mon,
May 16, 2016
at 4:35 PM,
Michael Turner<br>
<br>
<br>
Michael,<br>
<br>
Are you going
to take over
the list then?<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram
mailing list<br>
<a></a><a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing
list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<pre><hr>
SpaceProgram mailing list
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a>
</pre></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></div>
_______________________________________________
SpaceProgram mailing list
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a>
</blockquote></div>
</div></div>
_______________________________________________
SpaceProgram mailing list
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________
SpaceProgram mailing list
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a>
</blockquote></div>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
SpaceProgram mailing list
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>