<div dir="ltr">I'm sure that's been your experience, Matt. Subjectively, it has also been mine. I've chafed under accountability frameworks in almost every organization I've ever been in. They've always felt like a "massive, worthless drain."<br><br>Here's the thing, though: the ones that didn't have them, fell apart. Sometimes in very embarrassing ways. And one thing I've learned in trying to work with nonprofits in some parts of the world is that if you ask for accountability, and get only indignation in response, you're better off turning away and not bothering with those people ever again. They are on the take. I don't want to be like them. When potential donors say, "I need to look at how you spend money," I want to be in a position throw all the verification at them that they could possibly want, and more. They'll want to know that the level of parasitism in my organization is acceptably low. How can I blame them?<br><br>Permit a biological metaphor: a fair amount of any creature's metabolism goes into supporting its immune system. It's a lot. It's a massive, worthless drain, actually. Until there's an infection, or a cluster of mutant cells that might turn into a malignant tumor. <br><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: +81 (3) 6890-1140<br>Fax: +81 (3) 6890-1158<br>Mobile: +81 (90) 5203-8682<br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Silence Dogood <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">In my experience, working for a space agency, people who are interested in "<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">setting up a framework in which every iota of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can be recorded.</span>"  are usually a massive worthless drain on the project and very interested in inserting themselves in places they have no earthly business being, just to justify their continued leeching upon the project.  And, more often then not, they cost more than they benefit anyone... not just in fiduciary cost, but in time, complexity, and general nuisance factor introduced into the day to day operational workflow of the group working on the project.<div><br></div><div>-Matt</div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Michael Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Matt, in my experience of hackerspaces, there's lots of bitter argument by people who aren't contributing much of anything, much of the time. I tried. Eventually, I walked. I contributed time, money, equipment, project ideas ... but ultimately, I walked. I felt pretty alienated by know-it-all attitudes and a kind of knee-jerk anti-authoritarianism that prefers unproductive chaos to reasonable order.<br><br>So, again:<span><br><br><span style="font-size:12.8px">I'm interested in setting up a framework in which every iota of effort on funded projects can be tracked, and every penny of spending can be recorded. I'm interested in this because I'll need donors at some point, and donors typically require high transparency -- and results. I'd like to hear from makerspace leaders who've been successful at setting up such frameworks.</span><br><div><br></div><div><br></div></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span><br clear="all"><div><div>Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br></span><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:08 AM, Silence Dogood <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">In open source, committers walk and everyone else talks... and is promptly ignored.  If you think something can be done better, do it better.  Leadership is an act of demonstrating a better path forward.  Decrying folks is not productive.  We know success when we see it, everything else is just more of the same.<div><br></div><div>So, stop bitching, and go make a difference.</div><div><br></div><div>-Matt</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Michael Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">"<span style="font-size:12.8px">You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've sent </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">has been a slash and burn."<br></span><br>I'm destructive? What's more destructive: criticism of corruption, or corruption?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><span><br clear="all"><div><div>Regards,<br>Michael Turner<br>Executive Director<br>Project Persephone<br>K-1 bldg 3F<br>7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br><br>"Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div></div>
<br></span><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 12:57 AM, David <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ainut@hiwaay.net" target="_blank">ainut@hiwaay.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    You have to admit, Michael, that nearly every email you've sent <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 05/18/2016 11:02 AM, cole santos
      wrote:has been a slash and burn.<br>
      <br>
      David Merchant<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div><div><div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <p dir="ltr">Lol you just don't get it troll<br>
      </p>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On May 18, 2016 1:03 AM, "Michael Turner"
        <<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
        wrote:<br type="attribution">
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="ltr">"<span style="font-size:12.8px">Mike no one
              wanted to work with you because of emails like you just
              sent."<br>
            </span><br>
            I thought there should be more openness and oversight, and
            so nobody wanted to work with me? Interesting. I hadn't
            realized that openness and oversight were such unpopular
            things when spending taxpayers money. Unless, of course,
            you're a taxpayer. Are you?<br>
            <br>
            "<span style="font-size:12.8px">Since I wrote the grant, and
              got the Corp formed, and followed through until the
              project start, I think it's ok moraly."<br>
            </span><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
              I always assumed an education in philosophy would acquaint
              a person with the difference between morals and ethics.
              You learn something every day, I guess.</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
              <br>
              <br>
            </span></div>
          <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
            <div>
              <div>Regards,<br>
                Michael Turner<br>
                Executive Director<br>
                Project Persephone<br>
                K-1 bldg 3F<br>
                7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>
                Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>
                Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>
                Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>
                Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90)
                  5203-8682</a><br>
                <a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
                <a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
                <br>
                "Love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in
                looking outward together in the same direction." --
                Antoine de Saint-Exupéry</div>
            </div>
            <br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:48 AM,
              cole santos <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cksantos85@gmail.com" target="_blank">cksantos85@gmail.com</a>></span>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                <p dir="ltr">Mike no one wanted to work with you because
                  of emails like you just sent. We are amateurs hacking
                  it. Ps haesh was my project and it was somewhat a
                  sweetheart deal. I had to choose between a project or
                  a job. Since I wrote the grant, and got the Corp
                  formed, and followed through until the project start,
                  I think it's ok moraly. The other projects were all
                  random submissions. The principal aka jerry got
                  overwhelmed and didn't even really want the job. I
                  kinda forced it on him as I had a full time job.
                  Reality is not nearly as sensational as u wish.</p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">On May 16, 2016 9:07 PM,
                      "Michael Turner" <<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
                      wrote:<br type="attribution">
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div class="gmail_extra">First things first:</div>
                          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                            I'm interested in setting up a framework in
                            which every iota of effort on funded
                            projects can be tracked, and every penny of
                            spending can be recorded. I'm interested in
                            this because I'll need donors at some point,
                            and donors typically require high
                            transparency -- and results. I'd like to
                            hear from makerspace leaders who've been
                            successful at setting up such frameworks.<br>
                            <br>
                            Now, about the "drama":<br>
                            <br>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 17,
                              2016 at 2:51 AM, gmc <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gmc@hackerspaces.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:gmc@hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">gmc@hackerspaces.org</a>></span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                <div>Yay, drama. It's what hackers are
                                  best at! Bye bye mailing list.<br>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Clearly, some disillusionment and
                                malaise has set in.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Hackerspaces.org? No blog update
                                since just about two years ago.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Interesting critique there, though:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>  <a href="https://flux.hackerspaces.org/2014/01/19/diversity-and-the-hacker-scene/" target="_blank">https://flux.hackerspaces.org/2014/01/19/diversity-and-the-hacker-scene/</a></div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Drama will never go away permanently.
                                Sometimes the only way to quell drama is
                                with rules.<br>
                                <br>
                                If you're going to have rules, you can
                                try counting on ideas like legitimizing
                                all decisions through the rule of
                                relying on consensus (it always breaks
                                down). Or on rules set by some
                                "benevolent oligarchy" (the "oligarchs"
                                often get tired of arbitration and
                                moderation, and go missing.) There are a
                                variety of other dodges of the basic
                                responsibility of collective governance,
                                which is tedious and stressful compared
                                to making things.<br>
                                <br>
                                In the case of SpaceGAMBIT, the dodge
                                took the form of locating all authority
                                over spending that $500,000 in a tiny
                                handful of people who operated in a
                                pretty opaque fashion. In at least one
                                case, the opacity was defended by a
                                SpaceGAMBIT principal in terms of
                                DARPA's tight regulations about the
                                release of information. When I asked for
                                chapter and verse of those regulations,
                                there was no answer. Wait: you're saying
                                you got money from a government agency
                                that doesn't tell taxpayers the basis on
                                which it allows awarded organizations to
                                release information about how taxpayer
                                money is being spent? Interesting.<br>
                                <br>
                                Given the nature of the political
                                differences over taking money from
                                DARPA, I can see a reason for not
                                identifying winning teams when the
                                awards went out. It might have been
                                defensible as a way to protect the
                                awarded teams from harassment by those
                                who were most loudly opposed to that
                                money, and to what any hackerspace group
                                taking that money symbolized to them. <br>
                                <br>
                                The problem was: opacity could enable
                                sweetheart deals. Waste. Lax controls.<br>
                                <br>
                                And what do we have at the end?<br>
                                <br>
                                Examples:<br>
                                <br>
                                $20,000 for an open source satellite
                                mission design project that apparently
                                never checked anything into a repo.<br>
                                <br>
                                The HAESH project, which, by some odd
                                coincidence, was based in Hawaii. (And
                                apparently on Maui.)That was
                                statistically unlikely, especially when
                                you consider that the main SpaceGAMBIT
                                executive exulted at one point about how
                                great it was to work internationally,
                                not just in America, and not just in his
                                tiny home region of -- you guessed it --
                                Hawaii. Maui, in fact.<br>
                                <br>
                                How about the thousands of dollars for
                                the open source Make-a-Space Kit? It had
                                a laudable goal.<br>
                                <br>
                                "The goal of this project is to complete
                                the content--finalize the entire kit--
                                and then create a turn-key online
                                template which a new or existing space
                                can use to instantiate
                                the online project management, assign
                                specific tasks to board members, track
                                accountability,
                                and effectively communicate about the
                                status of the activities as the space is
                                launched and
                                formed."<br>
                                <br>
                                Where is it? Dead links on the
                                SpaceGAMBIT site. Try to get something
                                back from the Wayback Machine?
                                Unsuccessful.<br>
                                <br>
                                How about that Asteroid Badge? <br>
                                <br>
                                  <a href="https://github.com/CuriosityHacked/Learning/wiki/SpaceAsteroids" target="_blank">https://github.com/CuriosityHacked/Learning/wiki/SpaceAsteroids</a><br>
                                <br>
                                There's something in there that looks
                                like a rough draft of Make-a-Space Kit,
                                but certainly nothing that looks
                                "finalized."<br>
                                <br>
                                Thousands of dollars spent on those two
                                projects. And this is all there is to
                                show for it?<br>
                                <br>
                                It's what happens when there's no
                                openness or accountability, and when
                                money can be spent without significant
                                oversight by a small group of people.<br>
                                <br>
                                So, to repeat my request:<br>
                                <br>
                                I'm interested in setting up a framework
                                in which every iota of effort on funded
                                projects can be tracked, and every penny
                                of spending can be recorded. I'm
                                interested in this because I'll need
                                donors at some point, and donors
                                typically require high transparency --
                                and results. I'd like to hear from
                                makerspace leaders who've been
                                successful at setting up such
                                frameworks.<br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Regards,<br>
                                Michael Turner<br>
                                Executive Director<br>
                                Project Persephone<br>
                                K-1 bldg 3F<br>
                                7-2-6 Nishishinjuku<br>
                                Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0023<br>
                                Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81
                                  (3) 6890-1140</a><br>
                                Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81
                                  (3) 6890-1158</a><br>
                                Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81
                                  (90) 5203-8682</a><br>
                                <a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
                                <a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
                                <br>
                                "Love does not consist in gazing at each
                                other, but in looking outward together
                                in the same direction." -- Antoine de
                                Saint-Exupéry<br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div> </div>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                <div><br>
                                  <div class="gmail_quote"><span>On 16
                                      May 2016 18:26:04 CEST, Michael
                                      Turner <<a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
                                      wrote:</span>
                                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                      <div dir="ltr">
                                        <div>
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <div class="gmail_extra">
                                          <div class="gmail_quote"><span>On
                                              Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:55
                                              AM, cole santos <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cksantos85@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:cksantos85@gmail.com" target="_blank">cksantos85@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                              wrote:<br>
                                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Actually
                                                we took the DarPA money
                                                and the project was a
                                                great success. <a href="http://Www.spacegambit.Com" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://Www.spacegambit.Com" target="_blank">Www.spacegambit.Com</a></blockquote>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>A great success for
                                                some people, I suppose. 
                                                In a certain sense.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                I pick a project at
                                                random.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div><a href="http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/" target="_blank">http://www.spacegambit.org/satstatsim/</a></div>
                                            </span>
                                            <div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div><span>Funding:
                                                  $20,000<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  SpaceGAMBIT claim:
                                                  only open source
                                                  projects will be
                                                  funded.
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </span>
                                                <div>Reality: well, ta!
                                                  ke a
                                                  look.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                    <a href="http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/" target="_blank">http://satstatsim.blogspot.jp/</a></div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>Excuse:
                                                      "schedules slip".
                                                      OK, but you can't
                                                      check in any code,
                                                      anywhere?</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                        <a href="https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source" target="_blank"></a><a href="https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source" target="_blank">https://code.google.com/archive/p/satstatsim/source</a><br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      At least, that's
                                                      the only repo I
                                                      could find.</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>There's nothing in
                                                  it.</div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>It was largely
                                                  because of my concerns
                                                  about openness, clear
                                                  communication,
                                                  democratic process,
                                                  and leadership
                                                  accountability that I
                                                  decided to have
                                                  nothing further to do
                                                  with SpaceGAMBIT. This
                                                  was after feeling
                                                  enthusiastic about it
                                                  and even defending it
                                                  against what I thought
                                                  was unfair criticism.</div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>Really, I'd prefer
                                                  to have been wrong in
                                                  my suspicions.</div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>Regards,<br>
                                                        Michael Turner<br>
                                                        Executive
                                                        Director<br>
                                                        Project
                                                        Persephone<br>
                                                        K-1 bldg 3F<br>
                                                        7-2-6
                                                        Nishishinjuku<br>
                                                        Shinjuku-ku
                                                        Tokyo 160-0023<br>
                                                        Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81
                                                          (3) 6890-1140</a><br>
                                                        Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81
                                                          (3) 6890-1158</a><br>
                                                        Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81
                                                          (90) 5203-8682</a><br>
                                                        <a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
                                                        <a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        "Love does not
                                                        consist in
                                                        gazing at each
                                                        other, but in
                                                        looking outward
                                                        together in the
                                                        same direction."
                                                        -- Antoine de
                                                        Saint-Exupéry</div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div> </div>
                                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote>
                                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div><br>
                                                        On Monday, May
                                                        16, 2016,
                                                        Michael P Weber
                                                        II <<a href="mailto:michaelweberii@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:michaelweberii@gmail.com" target="_blank">michaelweberii@gmail.com</a>>
                                                        wrote:<br>
                                                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On
                                                          Mon, May 16,
                                                          2016 at 3:05
                                                          AM, Michael
                                                          Turner<br>
                                                          <<a></a><a href="mailto:michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com</a>>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          > Whether
                                                          intentional or
                                                          not, the
                                                          choice of
                                                          watercress
                                                          could be very<br>
                                                          >
                                                          space-relevant.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > (1)
                                                          Biosphere II
                                                          saw the direct
                                                          participation
                                                          of the late
                                                          Roy Walford,
                                                          MD, a<br>
                                                          > pioneer
                                                          self-experimenter
                                                          in CRON
                                                          (calorie
                                                          restriction
                                                          with optimal<br>
                                                          >
                                                          nutrition) as
                                                          a strategy for
                                                          life
                                                          extension.
                                                          This research
                                                          interested the<br>
                                                          > Biosphere
                                                          II organizers
                                                          because, in
                                                          feeding
                                                          long-duration
                                                          space mission<br>
                                                          >
                                                          participants,
                                                          fewer calories
                                                          eaten means,
                                                          to a good
                                                          first
                                                          approximation,<br>
                                                          > less mass
                                                          for the
                                                          ecological
                                                          life support
                                                          system,
                                                          leading to
                                                          lower mission<br>
                                                          > cost,
                                                          etc.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > (2)
                                                          Research into
                                                          how CRON
                                                          appears to
                                                          increase
                                                          lifespans (in
                                                          part by<br>
                                                          > reducing
                                                          cancer risk --
                                                          a big issue in
                                                          space travel
                                                          because of
                                                          space<br>
                                                          >
                                                          radiation)
                                                          reveals that
                                                          it's more
                                                          about protein
                                                          restriction
                                                          than about<br>
                                                          > calorie
                                                          restriction
                                                          per se.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > (3)
                                                          Further
                                                          research has
                                                          suggested that
                                                          it's
                                                          specifically
                                                          reduction of<br>
                                                          >
                                                          methionine
                                                          intake that is
                                                          the main
                                                          driver of life
                                                          extension in
                                                          CRON (hence,<br>
                                                          >
                                                          presumably,
                                                          lower cancer
                                                          risk);<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > (4)
                                                          High-glycine
                                                          diets sop up
                                                          excess
                                                          methionine.
                                                          (To be sure:
                                                          methionine is<br>
                                                          > an
                                                          essential
                                                          amino acid;
                                                          glycine is
                                                          not. But it
                                                          seems that
                                                          with
                                                          methionine,<br>
                                                          > you can
                                                          get too much
                                                          of a good
                                                          thing.)<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > (5)
                                                          Watercress is
                                                          very high in
                                                          glycine, quite
                                                          low in
                                                          methionine.
                                                          Watercress<br>
                                                          > might be
                                                          ideal for
                                                          offsetting the
                                                          cancer risks
                                                          from space
                                                          radiation in<br>
                                                          >
                                                          long-duration
                                                          space
                                                          missions.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > I think a
                                                          good next step
                                                          in such work
                                                          would be to
                                                          try to
                                                          optimize
                                                          watercress<br>
                                                          >
                                                          production in
                                                          an aeroponic
                                                          rather than a
                                                          hydroponic
                                                          style.
                                                          Hydroponics is<br>
                                                          > great,
                                                          highly
                                                          productive,
                                                          but ... water
                                                          is heavy.
                                                          Aeroponics can
                                                          give you<br>
                                                          > much of
                                                          the benefit of
                                                          hydroponics
                                                          but with a
                                                          fraction of
                                                          the equipment<br>
                                                          > mass.
                                                          Aeroponics
                                                          should be more
                                                          adaptable to
                                                          low-g and
                                                          microgravity<br>
                                                          >
                                                          environments
                                                          since it's not
                                                          gravity-dependent
                                                          -- it's
                                                          basically just
                                                          the<br>
                                                          >
                                                          deposition of
                                                          nutrient-enriched
                                                          mist droplets
                                                          on plant
                                                          roots.
                                                          Aeroponics may<br>
                                                          > have
                                                          gotten its
                                                          start from
                                                          NASA funding.<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > Regards,<br>
                                                          > Michael
                                                          Turner<br>
                                                          > Executive
                                                          Director<br>
                                                          > Project
                                                          Persephone<br>
                                                          > K-1 bldg
                                                          3F<br>
                                                          > 7-2-6
                                                          Nishishinjuku<br>
                                                          >
                                                          Shinjuku-ku
                                                          Tokyo 160-0023<br>
                                                          > Tel: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1140" value="+81368901140" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1140</a><br>
                                                          > Fax: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%283%29%206890-1158" value="+81368901158" target="_blank">+81 (3) 6890-1158</a><br>
                                                          > Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B81%20%2890%29%205203-8682" value="+819052038682" target="_blank">+81 (90) 5203-8682</a><br>
                                                          > <a></a><a href="mailto:turner@projectpersephone.org" target="_blank">turner@projectpersephone.org</a><br>
                                                          > <a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.projectpersephone.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectpersephone.org/</a><br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > "Love
                                                          does not
                                                          consist in
                                                          gazing at each
                                                          other, but in
                                                          looking
                                                          outward<br>
                                                          > together
                                                          in the same
                                                          direction." --
                                                          Antoine de
                                                          Saint-Exupéry<br>
                                                          ><br>
                                                          > On Mon,
                                                          May 16, 2016
                                                          at 4:35 PM,
                                                          Michael Turner<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Michael,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Are you going
                                                          to take over
                                                          the list then?<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                                          SpaceProgram
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          <a></a><a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
                                                          <a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
                                                        </blockquote>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                                                  list<br>
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                                                  <br>
                                                </blockquote>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <br>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <pre><hr>
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</blockquote></div>


<fieldset></fieldset>
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<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
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</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
SpaceProgram mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org">SpaceProgram@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/spaceprogram</a><br>
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