<div dir="ltr">Hi Julien!<div><br></div><div>Online deliberation is such an important topic! In fact, it's the subject of my current phd research! I know of a few projects that have attempted to improve online deliberation. There are many possible approaches, so you may or may not find that one of these meets your needs, but they can all give deep insight into online deliberation.</div><div><br></div><div>Discourse - a "civilized discourse construction kit" created by (among others) Jeff Atwood of Stack Overflow fame.</div><div>Loomio - forum software with built in voting and polling features</div><div>Wikum, Tilda, and PolicyKit - A collection of tools from Amy Zhang focused on collaborative summarization and governance</div><div></div><div>Consider.it - deliberation software focused on pros/cons</div><div></div><div>Hypothes.is - social annotation software</div><div><br></div><div>And here's a link to some of the work I've been doing:</div><div><a href="https://medium.com/@elplatt/building-consensus-through-deliberation-in-large-collaborations-organizations-and-cooperatives-79d28c3e3acc">https://medium.com/@elplatt/building-consensus-through-deliberation-in-large-collaborations-organizations-and-cooperatives-79d28c3e3acc</a></div><div><br></div><div>Also, the project is no longer live, but Charlie DeTar's work on Intertwinkles is very much worth reading:</div><div><a href="https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/91432">https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/91432</a></div><div><br></div><div>Bonne chance!</div><div>Ed</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 5:16 PM Julien Rolland <<a href="mailto:julien.rolland.tlse@gmail.com">julien.rolland.tlse@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Hello,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">A few words
of presentation first:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">In France
(I hope my English will be good) during the lock down I saw a lot of beautiful
projects emerge. I said to myself "And you? What could you do that would
be useful? I'm a left-wing activist (humanist to simplify), a bit of a
programmer, a bit of a statistician. I had an idea: how to solve the problem of
debates on the Internet, so that they bring out the best and not the worst, and
that they lead to concrete actions. Ambitious? Maybe, but on paper it works.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Abstract:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Debating on
the internet is unproductive. Only the worst comes out (like the Q-Anon
movement). To reappropriate this fabulous space a new form of efficient and
democratic moderation must be put in place. It is also necessary that all of
this be concretized IRL by acts. To achieve these objectives, I propose some
ideas that can be freely taken up. The heart of the idea is to reuse the
theories on the random casting of delegates for the purpose of moderation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">The most
difficult thing would not be to develop the application system, but to deploy
it so that it is used on a massive scale. It won't solve the problems of fake
news, but it could give us a kind of "safe place", where we can get
information and debate in an efficient way. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">1 - State
of the debate on the internet: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Debating on
the internet has become impossible. The trolls, the fascist sphere… are too
numerous. Algorithms often do their job badly and bring up the worst of the
web. And even with good will, finding and debating intelligently on the
internet seems to me impossible now.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Today a
certain form of moderation is used which doesn't suit me. It depends on the
all-powerful moderator (or impotent depending on the platform). And it's not
the best comments that surface but the most popular ones; the current
algorithms make it seem like a vicious circle even if it's crap.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">This is my
fourth writing of this presentation, not easy because the subject is complex.
But I think the idea is beautiful. To answer the above problems, I found a
pretty easy way to set up a new kind of forum/network/application that uses
something that is more and more appreciated: the random draw.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">You could
say that the goal is fourfold:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">1 - To get
rid of the trolls, fascists, conspirators (explaining why)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">2 -
Emphasize the quality of the remarks and not popularity</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">3 - The
whole thing is completely democratic, self-managed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">4 - Getting
things done IRL</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">It is a
tool. A tool that could be used by everyone for a lot of things. To plan
actions of strikes. Debate on government policy. On how to make ecology. To
even write a new constitution even with millions of people. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">2 - The
basic functioning:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">The
functioning is complex to explain but quite simple to set up and use. In my
opinion it also seems powerful to achieve these objectives. It doesn't matter
whether there are 100 people to debate (it's already a lot) or millions. So far
I haven't found anything equivalent on the web.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">2a -
Quality of the comments:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">I will take
the example of a user who launches this 'application' for the first time (it
can also be a website). He registers. He can read everything that has been
posted. However. To post a comment, he will first be asked to vote for other
comments. The revolutionary trick of this app is that he won't choose on which
comment to vote, they will be drawn among the existing comments!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">The vote
will not be 'yes or no' but on one (or more) scale. This first principle allows
a comment to be judged on its quality and not its popularity. Indeed, it will
be impossible to vote 'voluntarily' for a 'chosen' comment on which you already
have a precise personal point of view. According to my statistical knowledge.
About twenty votes per comment would be enough to have a reliable score of the
quality of the comment. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">If we start
from this figure of 20, it means that on average we would have to vote 20 times
to comment once. So, we will have to limit the size of the comments a little
bit, so that it is not too painful. We
can imagine an "abstract" system like we do in scientific papers: a
short summary limited in characters sufficient to vote, and then we put as much
as we want to develop. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">2b -
Democracy of votes:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">20 votes in
a row is too many, I think. It can be easily solved by also allowing to vote
(always on randomly chosen texts) without commenting. From time to time. Almost
like a game. But beware, our voting quota will be limited. Indeed, a user who
spends his days on the web could vote 1000 times in a clumsy way and bias the
results. So I imagine a small algorithm that will give a big daily voting quota
to a new (and active!) registrant, a quota that will decrease more and more
with time. This is for the egalitarian and therefore democratic side of the
application. [to be improved, but the idea is to have an egalitarian voting
quota].</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">The number
of comments that a user will be able to submit to the vote during the week will
also be limited, in order to take time for thinking and for other users to have
time to vote on them (always by random). We can imagine that there is a kind of
parallel forum that would be unlimited in comments but not submitted to the
vote, to the referencing. (If a really good comment is posted in this section,
anyone will be able to submit it to a copy/paste vote).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">2c - Anti-troll:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">At this
stage we have a democratic functioning that is supposed to bring out the good
things. But if trolls arrive massively, everything collapses. That's where it
becomes really interesting (and a bit complex). When we vote on a text (on a
scale), we can also tick "off-charter (/concordat ?)" boxes. So we'll
have to write a charter (/concordat ?) (simply respecting the law would be
nice). This idea of application is indeed obviously intended to bring together
people of good will, humanists, etc... and not the extreme right which already
has facebook and company. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">We can
imagine 4-5 boxes for reporting 'sexist remarks', 'xenophobic remarks', 'conspiracists
remarks'.... And here comes my basic idea: let's say that 60% of the users are
from the extreme right. Logically the shitty comments will come out. But the
remaining 40% will flag it as 'off the charts'. So, it will be easy to see if
the user votes for crap. Then the user identified as off-charts (/concordat ?)
will have all his votes cancelled, the site/application accessible only in
read-only mode, and will be redirected to texts or sites to try to make him
understand why he's blocked (we can redirect a conspirator to anti-conspiracy
sites for example that exist and are of good quality).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">For
example, right-wing extremist comments will be buried at the bottom of the page
or even deleted. And the interesting comments at the top of the 'quality'
ranking.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">It is not
quite foolproof at this stage. But: already, this application will first be
deployed, communicated, in left-wing circles obviously, so we should start on a
healthy basis. But we can imagine all kinds of retro-control. The 'off-charter'
reporting of members who have shown good faith could be stronger than that of
new members (the 'quality' votes remain totally equal). All this is a bit technical but very easily
done and will close the door to offensive comments. (Without closing access to
the application).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">This was
for the basics. All this is very easy to do, a small team of motivated
developers can do it very quickly. Of course, in open-source, non-commercial,
reusable everywhere, in all countries...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Well,
there's one last point, it's all very well to have an idea that gets a good
grade/notation, but then people have to be willing to get involved in it. And
with random votes it's not easy. So:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">2d -
Efficiency for struggles:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">In addition
to the main classification by quality of the remarks, will come other tabs (one
or more, to see). We will be able to vote freely this time on the comments
exceeding a certain quality rating. As a 'like'. For example, 'I like this
idea, I want to participate'. Thus, it will be a form of petition, an idea of
struggle for example (organize a big mobilization on such date for such reason)
can be voted on a lot, commented, debated, etc. And there will be a ranking of
these most popular ideas/projects. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">A little
bit of statistics (moving average of “like per days”) and even a new idea, if
it is well noted, will be quickly found in the first results. It doesn't matter
who you are, new user or not.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Then you
can imagine any kind of ranking by keywords to distinguish comments ('action',
'economic debate', 'ecology', 'writing a new democracy', etc...). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">3 - How to
participate, the to-do list :</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">I hope you
like the idea. It is a real reappropriation of the internet tool that I
propose. Effective, democratic debates that lead to something concrete. Nothing like this seems to exist at the
moment. It is however very simple to set up. There are three stages, and you
are cordially invited to participate in them to your measure:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">- Comment
and improve this project, on the political or technical side of things.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">- Find
developers willing to do this quickly.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">- Share as
much as possible massively on all networks as soon as it's available. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">That's it!
That was pretty simple! No? I did everything I could to make it happen. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">To be
improved....</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Translated
with <a href="http://www.DeepL.com/Translator" target="_blank">www.DeepL.com/Translator</a> (free version) (and some personal adjustment !)</span></p></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Edward L. Platt</div><div>PhD Candidate, University of Michigan School of Information</div><div>he/him | <a href="https://elplatt.com/" style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">https://elplatt.com</a> | @elplatt | @<a href="https://greatjustice.net/@elplatt" target="_blank">elplatt@greatjustice.net</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Tips for stopping email overload: </span><a href="https://hbr.org/2012/02/stop-email-overload-1" style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">https://hbr.org/2012/02/stop-email-overload-1</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>