<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>One think I forgot to copy-paste</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> You are just shitting all over that. You've provided no
better alternative. That's not constructive. It's just flame
bait man.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i>I can't, If I could, I would not be here. Its saddens me, but I
can't really</i><i><br>
</i><i> offer a solution. I can only pinpoint a few basic tricks the
power is using, </i><i><br>
</i><i> some of the mistakes people are doing. Other than that, I'm
stuck! and </i><i><br>
</i><i> frustrated that people who actually could make a difference
are getting manipulated</i><i><br>
</i><i> by individuals like Cecilia.</i><i><br>
</i>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><i>On 07/11/2017 10:21 PM, idnc_sk
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a970e287-134e-a709-34a5-007e30fd4d70@vpslab.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Well,</p>
<p>history is a difficult subject on it's own, I'd rather not make
it<br>
a few orders of magnitude more difficult by letting ourselves
drift <br>
into parallel universes / would-be timelines. I'm also not
qualified <br>
to go in-depth in such a discussion, so lets keep it as high
level as<br>
possible.</p>
<p>First, let me point out how far we are getting from my original
remark<br>
to Cecilia, nevertheless, I'm actually looking forward to write
this<br>
reply.<br>
</p>
<p>Before I'll do that <i>in-line</i>,<br>
</p>
<p>3 of the most profitable lies of our age are organized
religion, our<br>
history, and as of today, the most successful enslavement regime
ever<br>
in existence disquised under the term "democracy".</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The real turning-points / milestones in our history are never
taught <br>
in schools*<br>
</p>
<br>
Now, with that out of the way ..<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/11/2017 06:48 PM, Matt Joyce
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">I think you should stay out of south american
politics. And I'm not intending to invoke monroe doctrine. I
used to live there, and I stay out of it. It's not my place
to involve myself in the complexities there. I can reasonably
say this though... there were no good guys in any of the
situations you are referring to.</div>
</blockquote>
<b><i><br>
</i></b><i><b>#1</b></i><i> Be stationed in a country != living
in a country</i><br>
<b><i><br>
</i></b><i><b>#2</b> </i><b><i>@"there were no good guys"</i></b><br>
<i>Keeping my proverbial distance from that machiavellianistic
swamp </i><i><br>
</i><i>called realpolitik, there are </i><i><b>no</b></i><i>
hollywood-like good guys(well, there </i><i><br>
</i><i>are** but they don't stick around for long so to speak).
Everything </i><i><br>
</i><i>boils down to interests***, and(for the point I'll try to
make) how much </i><i><br>
</i><i>breadcrumbs people at the bottom get while that interest is
being </i><i><br>
</i><i>attained. Pointing out how BRUTAL the US has been in
maintaining its </i><i><br>
</i><i>interests would unavoidably lead to the soviet paper tiger,
which would </i><i><br>
</i><i>probably evolve into a disc. about it's todays replacement
- china. </i><i><br>
</i><i>All of which are complicated matters on their own but don't
worry, I'll </i><i><br>
</i><i> wrap it up somehow ;)</i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>You want to cast some huge swathe of horribleness on US
external influence... fine... we've gone done stuck our
proverbial dick in the mashed potatoes plenty of times. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
-<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> But your country would still be a soviet satellite state
without us, </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i><b>#3 </b></i><i>Well, by this logic, if you'd staid out of
WW1, we'd probably be </i><i><br>
</i><i> united states of austria-hungary and had a more even,
decentralized </i><i><br>
</i><i> world. Probably the single reason why that old
militaristic wreck of <br>
a monarch </i><i>Franc Jozef got manipulated into letting Franc
Ferdinand get <br>
killed </i><i>was that FF was a huge admirer of USA. FF wanted
to use *your* <br>
model </i><i>to solve hungarys decades-long nationalistic
struggles(in which our </i><i><br>
</i><i> nation played a small part in too) - instead of brute
force. The _central_<br>
role of UK in facilitating both world wars is </i><i>something
you never read about<br>
(well, Tragedy & Hope is one of the </i><i>books where you
can get a feel, but it <br>
was made unreadable for most). </i><i>We could get even further
- healthcare, <br>
social welfare and industrialization of africa - all hampered by
the US(not <br>
only, looking at you Belgium, France), but it's more important
to get </i><i>the <br>
account of our real history corrected before making statements
like yours <br>
above. </i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>and as far as international active involvement goes
historically... the US has been the nicest super power to
ever exist in global history. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i><b>#4 </b>OK, the fact that you cared enough to remember this
particular intellectual</i><i><br>
</i><i> crutch/piece of propaganda, albeit being a very shallow
one, gives at least</i><i><br>
</i><i> some hope that I'm not replying to a militant psychopath.
Power was never</i><i><br>
</i><i> this centralized, thats the single biggest problem of our
world today. UK and <br>
later </i><i>the US played a major role in it(you were the
"muscle" doing the dirty work), </i><i><br>
</i><i> so did ur globalised financial system. Everything you
might have seen in your </i><i><br>
</i><i> movies is a lie, you have been tricked. You are being
tricked, never ever</i><i><br>
</i><i> join the army.</i><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> So sure, we've fucked up. And continue to. But so far
we're doing better than anyone else yet. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i><b>#5 </b>Did a roadtrip across the states couple of years
ago, are you _sure_ this is </i><i><br>
</i><i> still true? Your country was hijacked, you are being
steered into the abyss, </i><i><br>
</i><i> a new replacement is almost ready.</i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Feel free to hop in and do better. Or feel free to sit
on the sidelines. We are international and national
fuckups. America was founded by fuckups, for fuckups.
We're proud of our fuckup heritage. We're the bastard
children of every other country. But that said... we are
doing better than others. You want to lead... lead. You
don't want to.. then follow or get out of the way.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i><b>#6 </b>There is so much historical details missing that
would change your viewpoint(s), that <br>
it does</i><i> not even make sense to start addressing this
point</i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I am down with people calling out the US for it's
mistakes. It's a fundamental tenant of a free society.
Enshrined in the magna carta. But, if you want to just say
shit could be better... well that's not constructive. Go
make it better. Cecilia is trying to make shit better.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i><b>#7 </b></i><i>No, she might be thinking that she does</i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> You are just shitting all over that. You've provided
no better alternative. That's not constructive. It's just
flame bait man.</div>
<div>You have some solid concerns... but I don't see you
following them up with a solution. And frankly... at some
level, all activism requires an above board legal
frameworked interaction with the world... otherwise they end
up like the palestinian liberation movement, trapped by
their own extremists incapable of any meaningful traction,
forever the victim of a nation with a better political and
public outreach.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i><b>#8 </b></i><i>This is a slippery slope, a land mine, some
of your presumptions are incorrect</i><i><br>
</i><i> but I won't go there, sry.</i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Sure sometimes they need their own backchannels and
clandestine components. But they need the above board shit
just as badly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Change is dangerous. Always has been. Always will be.
But our little nation of fuckups have proven that fucking up
is definitely better than hoping shit gets better and not
fucking up.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<i><b>#9 </b>Whatever you might be thinking of me or my opinions,
we are sitting in the same</i><i><br>
</i><i> boat, except with different propaganda bubbles build
around us. </i><i><br>
<br>
Had to truncate the email because of </i><br>
<i>"Message body is too big: 56391 bytes with a limit of 40 KB"<br>
<br>
</i>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP_sDUHK_K7JiV8_dvFBrse2ymW591Nb_pw+t=FT5SuHraY1QA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Matt</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>fuckups for the win.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 12:16 PM,
idnc_sk <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:idnc_sk@vpslab.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">idnc_sk@vpslab.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>:) <br>
<br>
I'd like to point that it was the US military who
actively removed almost every single<br>
democratically elected leader in south america, africa
and partly in asia whenever their<br>
pro-people "ideology" interfered with corporate
interests. Not "US" interests, not with<br>
the interests of "US" citizens, with corporate
interests. <br>
</p>
<p>[Harold Pinter on US foreign policy]<br>
<a class="m_-7896032220950095886moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flvLfSSR1d4"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=flvLfSSR1d4</a></p>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div class="m_-7896032220950095886moz-cite-prefix">On
07/11/2017 06:09 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I'd like to point out it was the US
military that basically built the internet.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at
11:29 AM, idnc_sk <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:idnc_sk@vpslab.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">idnc_sk@vpslab.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>I would definitely dial that enthusiasm
down a little. Anyone who cared to check
<br>
knows how important of a role Stanford
plays as an arm of the military
industrial <br>
complex. Regardless of how many
"transformations" LTT (claims to have)
underwent, <br>
we are not living in some fairyland!
Love and music are both great, I do
enjoy <br>
SF "yt" lectures, nevertheless there is
no room for naivety, no time to waste <br>
on projects / initiatives steered to
lead nowhere. Without going into
details, <br>
pleas please please don't be this naive,
you are actually harming people. Let me
put <br>
it clearly, people might *die* because
of such naivety. How many
activists/reporters/<br>
whistle-blowers died because of people
like you? How many hundreds if not
thousands <br>
fell victim to wikileaks and all the
"good" people knowingly or unknowingly
propagating <br>
their carefully constructed image? Do
you _know_ who the people in that org
are? </p>
<p>No, you don't</p>
<p>Please, don't harm people<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><3 <3 <3<br>
</p>
<p>idnc_sk<br>
</p>
<div>
<div class="m_-7896032220950095886h5"> <br>
<fieldset
class="m_-7896032220950095886m_5556998774754547963mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> </div>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Discuss mailing list
<a class="m_-7896032220950095886m_5556998774754547963moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a class="m_-7896032220950095886m_5556998774754547963moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Discuss mailing list<br>
<a
href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a
href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset
class="m_-7896032220950095886mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Discuss mailing list
<a class="m_-7896032220950095886moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a class="m_-7896032220950095886moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a><br>
<a
href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>