<div dir="ltr">None of that was constructive in any way man.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 4:21 PM, idnc_sk <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:idnc_sk@vpslab.org" target="_blank">idnc_sk@vpslab.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Well,</p>
<p>history is a difficult subject on it's own, I'd rather not make
it<br>
a few orders of magnitude more difficult by letting ourselves
drift <br>
into parallel universes / would-be timelines. I'm also not
qualified <br>
to go in-depth in such a discussion, so lets keep it as high level
as<br>
possible.</p>
<p>First, let me point out how far we are getting from my original
remark<br>
to Cecilia, nevertheless, I'm actually looking forward to write
this<br>
reply.<br>
</p>
<p>Before I'll do that <i>in-line</i>,<br>
</p>
<p>3 of the most profitable lies of our age are organized religion,
our<br>
history, and as of today, the most successful enslavement regime
ever<br>
in existence disquised under the term "democracy".</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The real turning-points / milestones in our history are never
taught <br>
in schools*<br>
</p>
<br>
Now, with that out of the way ..<span class=""><br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-2449614709913388056moz-cite-prefix">On 07/11/2017 06:48 PM, Matt Joyce
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I think you should stay out of south american
politics. And I'm not intending to invoke monroe doctrine. I
used to live there, and I stay out of it. It's not my place to
involve myself in the complexities there. I can reasonably say
this though... there were no good guys in any of the situations
you are referring to.</div>
</blockquote>
<b><i><br>
</i></b></span><i><b>#1</b></i><i> Be stationed in a country != living in
a country</i><br>
<b><i><br>
</i></b><i><b>#2</b> </i><b><i>@"there were no good guys"</i></b><br>
<i>Keeping my proverbial distance from that machiavellianistic swamp
</i><i><br>
</i><i>called realpolitik, there are </i><i><b>no</b></i><i>
hollywood-like good guys(well, there </i><i><br>
</i><i>are** but they don't stick around for long so to speak).
Everything </i><i><br>
</i><i>boils down to interests***, and(for the point I'll try to
make) how much </i><i><br>
</i><i>breadcrumbs people at the bottom get while that interest is
being </i><i><br>
</i><i>attained. Pointing out how BRUTAL the US has been in
maintaining its </i><i><br>
</i><i>interests would unavoidably lead to the soviet paper tiger,
which would </i><i><br>
</i><i>probably evolve into a disc. about it's todays replacement -
china. </i><i><br>
</i><i>All of which are complicated matters on their own but don't
worry, I'll </i><i><br>
</i><i> wrap it up somehow ;)</i><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>You want to cast some huge swathe of horribleness on US
external influence... fine... we've gone done stuck our
proverbial dick in the mashed potatoes plenty of times. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></span>
-<span class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> But your country would still be a soviet satellite state
without us, </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><i><b>#3 </b></i><i>Well, by this logic, if you'd staid out of WW1,
we'd probably be </i><i><br>
</i><i> united states of austria-hungary and had a more even,
decentralized </i><i><br>
</i><i> world. Probably the single reason why that old militaristic
wreck of <br>
a monarch </i><i>Franc Jozef got manipulated into letting Franc
Ferdinand get <br>
killed </i><i>was that FF was a huge admirer of USA. FF wanted to
use *your* <br>
model </i><i>to solve hungarys decades-long nationalistic
struggles(in which our </i><i><br>
</i><i> nation played a small part in too) - instead of brute force.
The _central_<br>
role of UK in facilitating both world wars is </i><i>something
you never read about<br>
(well, Tragedy & Hope is one of the </i><i>books where you
can get a feel, but it <br>
was made unreadable for most). </i><i>We could get even further -
healthcare, <br>
social welfare and industrialization of africa - all hampered by
the US(not <br>
only, looking at you Belgium, France), but it's more important to
get </i><i>the <br>
account of our real history corrected before making statements
like yours <br>
above. </i><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>and as far as international active involvement goes
historically... the US has been the nicest super power to ever
exist in global history. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><i><b>#4 </b>OK, the fact that you cared enough to remember this
particular intellectual</i><i><br>
</i><i> crutch/piece of propaganda, albeit being a very shallow one,
gives at least</i><i><br>
</i><i> some hope that I'm not replying to a militant psychopath.
Power was never</i><i><br>
</i><i> this centralized, thats the single biggest problem of our
world today. UK and <br>
later </i><i>the US played a major role in it(you were the
"muscle" doing the dirty work), </i><i><br>
</i><i> so did ur globalised financial system. Everything you might
have seen in your </i><i><br>
</i><i> movies is a lie, you have been tricked. You are being
tricked, never ever</i><i><br>
</i><i> join the army.</i><span class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> So sure, we've fucked up. And continue to. But so far
we're doing better than anyone else yet. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><i><b>#5 </b>Did a roadtrip across the states couple of years ago,
are you _sure_ this is </i><i><br>
</i><i> still true? Your country was hijacked, you are being steered
into the abyss, </i><i><br>
</i><i> a new replacement is almost ready.</i><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Feel free to hop in and do better. Or feel free to sit on
the sidelines. We are international and national fuckups.
America was founded by fuckups, for fuckups. We're proud of
our fuckup heritage. We're the bastard children of every
other country. But that said... we are doing better than
others. You want to lead... lead. You don't want to.. then
follow or get out of the way.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><i><b>#6 </b>There is so much historical details missing that would
change your viewpoint(s), that <br>
it does</i><i> not even make sense to start addressing this point</i><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I am down with people calling out the US for it's
mistakes. It's a fundamental tenant of a free society.
Enshrined in the magna carta. But, if you want to just say
shit could be better... well that's not constructive. Go make
it better. Cecilia is trying to make shit better.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><i><b>#7 </b></i><i>No, she might be thinking that she does</i><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> You are just shitting all over that. You've provided no
better alternative. That's not constructive. It's just flame
bait man.</div>
<div>You have some solid concerns... but I don't see you
following them up with a solution. And frankly... at some
level, all activism requires an above board legal frameworked
interaction with the world... otherwise they end up like the
palestinian liberation movement, trapped by their own
extremists incapable of any meaningful traction, forever the
victim of a nation with a better political and public
outreach.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><i><b>#8 </b></i><i>This is a slippery slope, a land mine, some of
your presumptions are incorrect</i><i><br>
</i><i> but I won't go there, sry.</i><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Sure sometimes they need their own backchannels and
clandestine components. But they need the above board shit
just as badly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Change is dangerous. Always has been. Always will be.
But our little nation of fuckups have proven that fucking up
is definitely better than hoping shit gets better and not
fucking up.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><i><b>#9 </b>Whatever you might be thinking of me or my opinions,
we are sitting in the same</i><i><br>
</i><i> boat, except with different propaganda bubbles build around
us. </i><i><br>
<br>
Had to truncate the email because of </i><br>
<i>"Message body is too big: 56391 bytes with a limit of 40 KB"<br>
<br>
</i>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Matt</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>fuckups for the win.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 12:16 PM,
idnc_sk <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:idnc_sk@vpslab.org" target="_blank">idnc_sk@vpslab.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><div class="h5">
<p>:) <br>
<br>
I'd like to point that it was the US military who
actively removed almost every single<br>
democratically elected leader in south america, africa
and partly in asia whenever their<br>
pro-people "ideology" interfered with corporate
interests. Not "US" interests, not with<br>
the interests of "US" citizens, with corporate
interests. <br>
</p>
<p>[Harold Pinter on US foreign policy]<br>
<a class="m_-2449614709913388056m_-7896032220950095886moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flvLfSSR1d4" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=flvLfSSR1d4</a></p>
</div></div><div>
<div class="m_-2449614709913388056h5"><div><div class="h5"> <br>
<div class="m_-2449614709913388056m_-7896032220950095886moz-cite-prefix">On
07/11/2017 06:09 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:<br>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">I'd like to point out it was the US
military that basically built the internet.</div>
</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at
11:29 AM, idnc_sk <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:idnc_sk@vpslab.org" target="_blank">idnc_sk@vpslab.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><div class="h5">
<p>I would definitely dial that enthusiasm
down a little. Anyone who cared to check <br>
knows how important of a role Stanford
plays as an arm of the military industrial
<br>
complex. Regardless of how many
"transformations" LTT (claims to have)
underwent, <br>
we are not living in some fairyland! Love
and music are both great, I do enjoy <br>
SF "yt" lectures, nevertheless there is no
room for naivety, no time to waste <br>
on projects / initiatives steered to lead
nowhere. Without going into details, <br>
pleas please please don't be this naive,
you are actually harming people. Let me
put <br>
it clearly, people might *die* because of
such naivety. How many
activists/reporters/<br>
whistle-blowers died because of people
like you? How many hundreds if not
thousands <br>
fell victim to wikileaks and all the
"good" people knowingly or unknowingly
propagating <br>
their carefully constructed image? Do you
_know_ who the people in that org are? </p>
<p>No, you don't</p>
<p>Please, don't harm people<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><3 <3 <3<br>
</p>
<p>idnc_sk<br>
</p>
<div>
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