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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/02/15 19:18, michael howard
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CALgzF_TZuaABMg-DUek3yp7gZYis8Ei2=7870-smBxUE-C4Uaw@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>You are not in Kansas anymore. </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>The hackerspace is not the same as your day job. <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Errr. I'm not sure what your point is.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CALgzF_TZuaABMg-DUek3yp7gZYis8Ei2=7870-smBxUE-C4Uaw@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">2015-02-25 15:56 GMT-03:00 Edward L
          Platt <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:ed@elplatt.com" target="_blank">ed@elplatt.com</a>></span>:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">I have to say, I really love this thread. It
              contains some clear examples of the very best and very
              worst in hackerspace culture.</div>
            <div class="gmail_extra">
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 1:54
                    PM, Red Davies <span dir="ltr"><<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:noiddicle@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank">noiddicle@gmail.com</a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So
                      I'm going to regret this...<br>
                      <span><br>
                        On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:51 PM, peter <<a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:phm@riseup.net" target="_blank">phm@riseup.net</a>>
                        wrote:<br>
                        > I beg to differ. I don't care what the
                        'law' says. I care about what is the<br>
                        > right/moral thing to do.<br>
                        <br>
                      </span>I think we all care about what is
                      "right/moral" Peter.  The issue of<br>
                      course is that we disagree as to the right/moral
                      thing to do in this<br>
                      case.  The law is a parseable emotionless
                      framework which is designed<br>
                      to address this issue.  Is it perfect? no... but
                      it provides a<br>
                      consistent and known framework and sometimes
                      that's the best we can<br>
                      <span>do.<br>
                        <br>
                        > (there is no appeal process, but I can try
                        to call an EGM, which is what I'm<br>
                        > doing)<br>
                        <br>
                      </span>Good!<br>
                      <span><br>
                        > If your government starts committing
                        genocide, would you say 'oh well, they<br>
                        > passed a law to make it legal, so there is
                        nothing I can do?'.<br>
                        <br>
                      </span>I'm actually really disappointed with you
                      that you erected that<br>
                      specific straw-man.  You seem very intelligent so
                      you know already in<br>
                      advance why your argument is made of straw.<br>
                      <br>
                      In a Hackerspace you volunteer to be a member
                      until the bylaws as they<br>
                      are written.  You are free to leave at any time. 
                      When it comes to<br>
                      government wanting to commit genocide of their own
                      people those people<br>
                      have no choice.<br>
                      <span><br>
                        > I like
                        philosophy/logic/reasoning/rhetoric/critical
                        thinking. I think it's<br>
                        > good to practise these skills, and fun to
                        do in it's own right.<br>
                        <br>
                      </span>Just like sex.  I like it, I think it's
                      good to practice and fun to do<br>
                      in its own right.  That still requires however
                      consenting parties.<br>
                      <span><br>
                        >The problem is people who don't like being
                        told why they're wrong.<br>
                        <br>
                      </span>Sure, nobody does.  They are however in a
                      position of leadership and<br>
                      responsibility which means that they get to make
                      the decisions because<br>
                      they're the ones that have to deal with the
                      consequences of the wrong<br>
                      decisions being made.  The members have the
                      ability to either:<br>
                      <br>
                      0. Hold those individuals to account when it comes
                      time to elections.<br>
                      1. Just leave and do something less boring
                      instead.<br>
                      <span><br>
                        <br>
                        > Why don't they be all chill and just ignore
                        me?<br>
                        <br>
                      </span>... because as leaders of the organization
                      they have to show<br>
                      leadership and deal with PR.  Some allegations
                      have to be responded<br>
                      to.  If you make the same, tired assertions again
                      and again then they<br>
                      have to be answered to again and again.  This is
                      exhausting.<br>
                      <br>
                      There are what, over a thousand members of LHS. 
                      Let's just take 1000<br>
                      as a round number.  If every member were to take
                      up as much resources<br>
                      as you are then there wouldn't be an LHS.  That
                      doesn't mean that<br>
                      people shouldn't engage or shouldn't complain.  It
                      means that people<br>
                      should respect those people's time and not waste
                      it over thrown away<br>
                      pasta.<br>
                      <br>
                      Proportionality please.<br>
                      <br>
                      That's it.  Please respect the time of the
                      volunteers.  They sacrifice<br>
                      their own project time so others can work on
                      theirs.<br>
                      <span><font color="#888888"><br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          Red<br>
                        </font></span>
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                        <div>_______________________________________________<br>
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                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
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