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<p>I'm going to regret this but.....</p>
<p>"<em>I see that they get annoyed when people tell them exactly why they are wrong</em>."</p>
<p>This is exactly the problem, you believe you are right and everyone else needs to be educated to your way of thinking, however you are a member of a community where all sorts of people need to work out how to get on with each other and communicate successfully. The rules for doing this are defined by the community as a whole and it's up to you to figure them out and abide by them, the rules are definitely not defined by a single member who thinks it should be done his way. If you won't do this then it's clear that this community is not for you and you need to move on and find a place where you do fit in. </p>
<p>You are starting to remind me of Sheldon Cooper in Big Bang Theory, except when Sheldon finds himself in a social situation he doesn't understand, he actually takes advice from his friends. If the plot lines had never had him doing this then the program would not have got past the second series.</p>
<p>Rob</p>
<p> </p>
<p>On 23.02.2015 04:15, peter wrote:</p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 22/02/15 05:40, Red Davies wrote:</div>
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<pre>Peter,
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 8:58 PM, peter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:phm@riseup.net"><phm@riseup.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
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<pre>I still don't know what they think I've done wrong.
</pre>
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<pre>You know what, I believe you. I believe you because the examples you
quoted paint you in a worse light than the leadership you're
criticizing. If you recognized that then you wouldn't have quoted
those examples.
I think this is the root of the impasse. A group of people say you
have a tail. You don't see the tail so you argue with them about it
ad infinitum. In a touch of irony, my guess is that this is the tail
they're referring to. Maybe a group of people the other side of the
world telling you that you have a tail might make you look again.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /><em>I see that they get annoyed when people tell them exactly why they are wrong</em>.<br /><br />lBut I don't think that telling people clearly and respectfully why they're wrong is a bad thing.<br /><br /> Is that what they think I've done wrong?<br /><br /> I'm banned cos I said stuff that they didn't agree with?<br /><br /><br />
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<pre>
The thing that jumps out at me more than anything from the threads you
link is that you're exhausting. That sounds horrible I know so let me
try and break it down. Four things:
0. You are willing to die on every hill.
1. You're not willing to accept other people's points of view or feelings.
2. You don't disengage when people ask you to.
3. You assume bad faith from others and expect them to consider your
comments with good faith.
0. You're willing to die on every hill.
When you're in an organization with a shared space everyone has to
compromise - especially one the size of LHS. Compromise doesn't mean
that someone convinced you of the merit of their position. Compromise
explicitly means that they DIDN'T but you accept it for the greater
good of your community at the expense of your own interests. You can
maintain a position of disagreement and still compromise by saying
something like: "I don't agree but go ahead and X and I'll do Y.
Maybe next time we can work on Z together...". Community > Self,
otherwise why are you there?
</pre>
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<br /> This is not relevant. I wasn't stopping them from doing anything. There was nothing to compromise about. If they didn't like my posts, they didn't have to read them or reply.<br /><br /><br />
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<pre>
1. You're not willing to accept other people's points of view or feelings.
The world isn't black and white. You seem to hold to the point that
there is one absolute answer which is the one that you hold at the
time. I don't doubt that with good arguments you're willing to change
your mind on things. The issue is that you seem to crave that
everyone has one opinion (your current one). Wag more, bark less.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /> I don't know why you think this. <br /><br /> They didn't make any points that convinced me that I might be wrong.<br /><br /> I change my mind all the time, when smart people say smart things that had not occurred to me.<br /><br />
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<pre>
Be a good member of the community. The "it" saga illustrates this perfectly:
"I like de-humanising. I think it's a good thing.I prefer for people
to call me 'it'."
I have a friend who is an MMA fighter. He LOVES being punched in the
face. He says that the adrenaline rush makes him feel alive. Going
by your logic he should be giving the gift of "feeling alive" to
everyone he meets even when they ask him not to.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /> This is not what was happening. I was not saying 'I like it, so you should like it too'.<br /><br /> The reason I mentioned that I liked it was to make it clear that I wasn't doing it nastily.<br /><br /> The argument was: I speak in this way using these ideas and language, and you can speak how you want.<br /><br /> I don't dictate to others which language they should use and how they should speak.<br /><br /><br />
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<pre>"I think it's funny to call people 'it'. If it upsets them, it can
come and talk to me and I'll try to help it develop a sense of humour.
(and if it really can't do this, I'll stop calling it 'it' in public).
This is just insane.
You explicitly say that if something YOU DO to them UPSETS them then
you'll help them develop the ability to have what you do to them not
upset them while you do it to them. Do you not see how this principle
borders on abusive?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /> No. I was being nice by offering to teach them a different way of thinking.<br /><br /> I didn't have to be nice. I could have just said 'If you don't like my ideas or how I present them, then don't talk to me'<br /><br /><br />
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<pre>
The intellectual merit of whether "it" is a socially appropriate
construct or not is irrelevant at this point. Your response is
inappropriate.
A story:
When I was in school I had an amazing friend who I still love dearly
to this day but we lost contact when we went to uni. I finally found
her a few years ago and tried to make contact. When I did she told
me:
a. Thank you for your friendship, I love you and I really really
appreciated it.
b. School was the hardest part of my life. I wanted to die. I've cut
all ties to that time of my life and moved on.
c. I love you but I don't want to re-introduce our friendship because
it will remind me of the painful memories of that time of my life.
I didn't say to her: "I didn't do anything to you like those other
bastards, let's meet up so I can help show you why you're wrong to
feel that way".
Sure, there was a part of me that wanted to (because the rejection
feels unjust). No, as an empathic human being I recognized that
fighting that battle would have caused her upset and pain. I let it
go.
Telling people that you can educate them how they should be feeling is
arrogance of the first degree.</pre>
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<br />
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<pre>
2. You don't disengage when people ask you to.
This is the biggest one I think. When people don't want to talk about
it anymore then continuing to talk at them about it will just make
things worse. If someone walks away then they don't want to talk
about it. If you follow them to continue it even after they state
they don't want to talk about it that crosses a line.
Yes you want to be heard, I get that but if someone is telling you to
stop and you continue then you're talking AT them but they're not
going to hear you. You won't be "heard" because the sound of who you
are at that point will be deafening them.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /> I wasn't forcing anyone to talk. They kept replying and I kept telling them why they were wrong.<br /> What they wanted was to say 'shut up. This is what we think, and we're right, and you must not try to tell us otherwise. now shut up'<br /><br /><br />
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<pre>
3. You assume bad faith from others and expect them to consider your
comments with good faith.
Your opening EMail said this:
"I suspect this was done by a 'trustee' as revenge for me suggesting
'doorbot' should not be blaring out loud music into the space every 5
minutes."
The simplest explanation is that someone looked at the food and dumped
it before it would got moldy. Instead of considering the possibility
that someone was being over-zealous in their cleaning (that's a
problem most hackerspaces wish they had!) you go straight to making
two bad faith assertions:
a. It was a trustee.
b. It was revenge.
Yet on the other hand you expect people to believe that you're not
intentionally trolling when you suggest that people can come to you
for emotional correction.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /> I have good reasons for suspecting this was the case.<br /> (I know roughly when it was done. I know who was in the space at the time. I know who didn't do it. I've spoken to other people that say this guy has done spiteful, petty things to them. And if he was just cleaning up the fridge, it's odd that he didn't touch the raw chicken or other stuff that had been in there for ages.)<br /> So it's not a pure guess.<br /><br />
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<pre> </pre>
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<pre>I feel very confident that I can defend all of my posts. I was not rude or
abusive. I was not trolling. They were my genuine thoughts. They were all
relevant to the hackspace.
</pre>
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<pre>Instead of defending all your posts perhaps you should re-read them?
</pre>
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<br /><em>I do this a lot.</em> That's how I know I can defend everything I've said. Because I was very careful with everything I wrote. I was well aware that people can misunderstand things. <br /><br /><br />
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<pre> </pre>
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<pre>It may be the case that they annoyed some people, but that's because some
people find some ideas/people annoying.
</pre>
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<pre>Sure, and that's going to happen.
What would you call someone who:
a. Knows the behaviour they're exhibiting that annoys people and
continues anyways because it's how they prefer to be treated.
b. Informs them that they're going to keep doing it because they enjoy it.
c. Advises them that they're willing to take time out of their busy
schedule to annoy them until they understand why they shouldn't be
annoyed.
d. Continues to argue the issues even after those people want to just
walk away and get on with their life.
Serious question.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /> If they didn't enjoy the discussion, why did they keep on reading and replying? <br /><br /><br />
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<pre>
My advice to you is to "agree to disagree" and live in a separate
orbit for a while. The organization has asked you to disengage so
break your pattern and disengage. If you don't you're continuing the
cycle and pattern of behaviour which further cements their decision.
Live in that separate orbit for a while (a single rotation about Sol
is what they asked for) and after that period of time start from
scratch. Time and distance will heal the wounds on both sides and
hopefully you'll both have an opportunity to start again.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br /> One of the 'trustees' is a larger gentleman whose nick is 'Sol' :-)<br /><br /><br />
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<pre>
Good Luck,
Red
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