<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Please stop calling it "civic hacking". It's called "activism" and
it has no business in the hackerspace movement.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/07/2014 11:15, Randall G. Arnold
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1610326182.89324.1404411358521.open-xchange@oxuslxltgw03.lxa.perfora.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div> So Colin, are you then philosophically opposed to civic
hacking? Do you see it as out of scope for a maker/hacker
space? If so, do you have an alternative in mind for an
organizing body? Truly curious. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Randy </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="position: relative; margin-left: 0px;
padding-left: 10px; border-left: solid 1px blue;" type="cite">
On July 3, 2014 at 1:09 PM Colin Keigher
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@keyboardcowboy.ca"><general@keyboardcowboy.ca></a> wrote: <br>
<br>
I think that allowing a space to call itself a "hackerspace"
while trying to become something more poisons the movement for
everyone else and likely ruins it. <br>
<br>
Groups like IndyMedia failed because of their insistence on
promoting a viewpoint that was extreme. This viewpoint ended up
coming into play because of individuals who got involved who had
certain attitudes. It is these same types of individuals who
contributed to IMCs being looked down upon. Tragedy of the
commons really played a role in making IndyMedia irrelevant. <br>
<br>
This same plague that took down many of the IMCs is the same
plague that can take over a hackerspace. This is the plague you
want to avoid if you want to make sure that your space does not
end up trying to become something it has no business becoming.
Much of the problems that people want to tackle that spaces have
no business being a part of should be addressed in the public
sphere through government and political activism. A hackerspace
should only be there to provide tools to assist, not solutions.
<br>
<br>
Asking for diversity in hackerspaces as a whole is going to lead
to hackerspaces being looked down upon and will lead to
Noisebridge-esque jokes being hackerspace-esque instead. <br>
<br>
- Colin <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> On 03/07/2014 10:52, matt wrote: </div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div> I'd think this strikes to the heart of defining
the mission of a space. At NYC Resistor we went with
Learn, Make, Share... but obviously we needed to limit
some other aspects of what we might accomplish in
order to protect the core mission. <br>
<br>
And that core mission really is the gooey center of
our community. It's something we're all on board
with. <br>
</div>
So I think the question of politically activism in
hackerspaces strikes to the very core of a hackerspace
as a community. By being political you've become
unwelcoming to those who might disagree with your views,
and your goals. You've focused more on building the
community you want to be a part of. <br>
</div>
I'd say that's probably a good thing for those who are
part of that community and make that community a healthy
one. <br>
<br>
That being said, I think some communities are obviously
toxic... such as what remains of Occupy. And frankly, I'd
say the same of Indymedia. It's interesting as it drives
to the core of how do you cultivate and how do you define
the metric of success for a healthy community? <br>
</div>
<div> At the same time there is the dichotomy of hackerspace
as a public utility rather than as a community. My
library is not a place I go to enjoy the company of my
peers. It's a place I go to get access to shared
knowledge in the form of books. And that's great. <br>
</div>
<div> Some spaces may want to be ran as a public utility. I
think the noisebridge model drove that direction. But
some of the members never could let go of the idea of
being a community and enjoying the benefits of that trust
relationship. They couldn't reconcile the divide between
hackerspace as a public utility and hackerspace as a
community. <br>
<br>
And I think at the core of this discussion is the question
of whether or not these two views are irreconcilable. </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"> <br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote"> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:46 PM,
Randall G. Arnold <span><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:randall.arnold@texrat.net">randall.arnold@texrat.net</a>></span>
wrote: <br>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0; .8ex;border-left: 1px
#ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div> Texas politics are very polarized these days and
get ugly quick, so we've tried to get our community
to leave that aspect of their lives at home.
There's a strong tea party undercurrent to our
membership though, and it is what it is. So far
people have been respectful enough to let the
provocative comments be, and we haven't had an
issue. Yet. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> That said, I'm not sure how that question came
out of what I posted, which was apolitical. I do
get that societal issues CAN get political, but
we've put a lot of effort into avoiding the
polarizing aspects. Things like clean air and water
aren't really political issues-- they're politicized
by people with non-maker agendas. Restoring horned
lizards cuts across all demographics here-- everyone
wants them brought back. So in cases like these,
it's easy to pull together people of diverse
political leanings. We put our focus on the COMMON
goals. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Randy </div>
<div> Tarrant Makers </div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="margin-left: 0px; padding-left:
10px; border-left: solid;" type="cite"> On July
3, 2014 at 12:32 PM Al Billings < <a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="mailto:albill@openbuddha.com">albill@openbuddha.com</a>>
wrote: <br>
<br>
Is your space welcoming to people, regardless of
personal politics or do you have to be a
specific kind of
lefty/socialist/anarchist/hippy/whatever in
order to be welcome?
<div> </div>
<div> I say this as a socialist but I don’t want
there to be a political litmus test on whether
people are welcome in a space. My space has
members who, quietly on occasion, bitch about
Obama and his “agenda” with an eye roll from
some other members. We have a communist or two
and probably more than a few anarchists.
Generally, I know someone for a year or more
before I even realize their personal politics.
Why? Because we’re there to hack, not to form
a political party. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> There are definitely spaces where this
isn’t the case. If you aren’t on board with
the specific local politics (which are usually
a certain specific form of left leaning
anarchism), you are shunned pretty heavily and
“don’t fit in.” I’d rather have a Republican
that wants to build a project from salvaged
computers than an anarchist that just wants to
hang out in the kitchen “food hacking.” </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Al </div>
<div> <br>
<div>
<div> On Jul 3, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Randall
G. Arnold < <a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:randall.arnold@texrat.net">randall.arnold@texrat.net</a>>
wrote: </div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> I disagree
when you frame that as an absolute.
Sure, there CAN be negative outcomes
when a maker/hacker space or
organization has fixing societal
problems as a goal, but it ain't
necessarily so. It all comes down to
defining the goal(s), having people to
support them and for members with
different goals to be respectful of each
other and not get in each other's way. </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> If as a
makerspace member I put together a
special interest group that builds
remote wildlife monitoring stations for
helping horned lizard conservation, and
I don't disrupt anyone else in the
process, then I'm positively hacking the
planet and no one gets hurt. Win-win. </div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div> Al Billings <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="mailto:albill@openbuddha.com">albill@openbuddha.com</a>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://makehacklearn.org">http://makehacklearn.org</a>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div> Randall (Randy) Arnold <br>
Developer and Enthusiast Advocate <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://texrat.net">http://texrat.net</a> <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="tel:%2B18177396806">+18177396806</a> </div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________ <br>
Discuss mailing list <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote style="position: relative; margin-left: 0px;
padding-left: 10px; border-left: solid 1px blue;" type="cite">
_______________________________________________ <br>
Discuss mailing list <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a> <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a> </blockquote>
<div> <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>