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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Thank you, Sam. These are all insightful points.<div><br></div><div>Mark<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: sam.ley@gmail.com<br>Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 13:57:04 -0600<br>To: discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org<br>Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Failing/failed hackerspaces<br><br><div dir="ltr">Leave it to the Hackerspaces list to deeply debate the definition of "failing". I think for the OP's purposes, nearly any definition of "failing" would be fine, as long as it yields some lessons that could be learned by a space wanting to be "less failing" in any category.<div>
<br></div><div>As for reasons they fail (by any definition) my experience would say that "bad at accounting" would be very high on the list, with "not researching local codes and regulations" and "poor expectation setting regarding organizational responsibilities" as close seconds.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-Sam</div></div><div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:53 PM, Sung won Lim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:4phlebas@gmail.com" target="_blank">4phlebas@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="ltr">Well there could be something like a completely corrupt and abusive hackerspace that earns enough money to keep the doors open. You could always get unpaid interns make things and then sell them/offer the process as classes without crediting them. <br>
<br><br></div><div class="ecxHOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Randall G. Arnold <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:randall.arnold@texrat.net" target="_blank">randall.arnold@texrat.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><u></u>
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Yeah, it's really easy to spawn tangents on this topic. ;)
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If a space fails to appeal to visitors, yet is still successful for the regulars, then I guess it loses its designation as An Official Tourist Attraction. More beer for the locals.
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Seriously: if you're pleasing your target audience, yet irritating people you didn't target (even inadvertantly), I fail to see a problem... unless said outreach was part of the mission. But even then, not a failure unless the administration fails to investigate and address. Just an opportunity (sorry, old corporate habit).
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And if pleasing visitors is ouside the mission, or is seen as obviously more work than it's worth, then no real issue. Also still more beer.
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On April 4, 2014 at 2:41 PM Crawford Comeaux <<a href="mailto:crawford.comeaux@gmail.com" target="_blank">crawford.comeaux@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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What about failing to be fun/appealing to visitors from other spaces? Disregard if that also leads to hair-splitting ;)
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On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Randall G. Arnold
<span><<a href="mailto:randall.arnold@texrat.net" target="_blank">randall.arnold@texrat.net</a>></span> wrote:
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That's another question that requires context. I doubt the locals would see it as failing, even as global community might. And not to nitpick, but failing what? I agree with Mark: if it's open it's certainly not an operational failure... but I can see where some might see *philosophical* failure if it didn't meet certain conventions. And even THAT starts up the usual hair-splitting...
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It's Friday. No hair-splitting for me. ;)
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Randy
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Tarrant Makers
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On April 4, 2014 at 2:24 PM Crawford Comeaux <
<a href="mailto:crawford.comeaux@gmail.com" target="_blank">crawford.comeaux@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Would a failing space be one that may be locally successful, but viewed negatively in the global hackerspace community?
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On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Mark Henderson
<span><<a href="mailto:mhenderson683@live.com" target="_blank">mhenderson683@live.com</a>></span> wrote:
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I define a failed space as one who's no longer in business. Doors closed, memberships cancelled, 100% out of business.
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<hr>Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 12:50:39 -0400
<br>From:
<a href="mailto:4phlebas@gmail.com" target="_blank">4phlebas@gmail.com</a>
<br>To:
<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<br>Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] Failing/failed hackerspaces
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Define failed hackerspace- if a nasty space keeps on chugging along through geographical/media clout despite severe issues, is it a successful space?
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On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jesse Krembs
<span><<a href="mailto:jessekrembs@gmail.com" target="_blank">jessekrembs@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:
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Hey Matt
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I would argue that neither the HHH or the L0pht are good examples of failed spaces.
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The HHH was a residence first in my view and just happened to be populated by hackertypes.
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The L0pht predates the modern hackerspaces era, was private and was a unique beast, also it didn't so much as get bought by corporate interests and sold out to (or bought in).
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3rd Ward might be better example. (makerspace).
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On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:35 PM, matt
<span><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com" target="_blank">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span> wrote:
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> 1. What are some well known failed spaces to the discussion group, and
<br>> what caused them to fail?
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HHH ( all the things ), L0pht ( purchased by corporate interest ), Countless tiny unheard of spaces.
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> 2. Are there any spaces that are "too big to fail", i.e. too much money is
<br>> invested in the space - so much so that it has become a disservice to the
<br>> community instead of an asset? What are some of the common mistakes
<br>> that spaces make that keep them from growing or succeeding?
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Noisebridge.
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I'd ask you this. Is growth success? Start with what your own metric for success is. If you are just building a physical edifice to your own interest, you've probably already failed. If you are trying to start a movement to support a crusade... again you've failed. If you are just trying to find a group of people you want to hack with... then all you need is enough people to be happy and survive. What keeps people from success generally, is failing to identify what their metric for success is. Or trying to do too many things. You can't be all things to all people. The other big one is believing there is a community to support your goals when sometimes there just isn't. And the last and worst... thinking you can turn running a hackerspace into a career.
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> 3. Has anyone taken failed models and used them as sort of a "this is what
<br>> not to do" list? Where could I source that info?
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<a href="http://hackerspaces.org/images/8/8e/Hacker-Space-Design-Patterns.pdf" target="_blank">http://hackerspaces.org/images/8/8e/Hacker-Space-Design-Patterns.pdf</a>
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> 4. For people new to this industry, what are some of the common
<br>> newcomer mistakes in starting up a makerspace/hackerspace that you would
<br>> have liked to been made aware of so you could have avoided them and
<br>> saved yourself a massive headache?
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</div> Trust every member of your space as if they had keys to your home. If you can't do that, you've already failed.
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On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Mark Henderson
<span><<a href="mailto:mhenderson683@live.com" target="_blank">mhenderson683@live.com</a>></span> wrote:
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I have some questions about failed or failing hackerspaces and makerspaces.
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<br>1. What are some well known failed spaces to the discussion group, and what caused them to fail?
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2. Are there any spaces that are "too big to fail", i.e. too much money is invested in the space - so much so that it has become a disservice to the community instead of an asset? What are some of the common mistakes that spaces make that keep them from growing or succeeding?
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3. Has anyone taken failed models and used them as sort of a "this is what not to do" list? Where could I source that info?
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4. For people new to this industry, what are some of the common newcomer mistakes in starting up a makerspace/hackerspace that you would have liked to been made aware of so you could have avoided them and saved yourself a massive headache?
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Thanks!
<span><span style="color:#888888;"><br><br>Mark Henderson</span></span>
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