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This has been one of the most interesting threads in this list for a variety of reasons. But moving past that, I'm curious: does anyone in this conversation actually know Madelynn in person? I do, and I can assure my testosterone-fueled brethren that she's not one to worry about pissing contests or stereotypical assumptions.
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It would be nice if we could just all get past issues of gender, but some of the responses just serve to prove my friend Madelynn right and show that we have a long way to go until we're people first and subclassifications second...
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Randy
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On January 26, 2014 at 11:15 PM Red Davies <noiddicle@gmail.com> wrote:
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Madelynn,
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I feel I need to point something out. Your invitation to that form says "
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 19px;">If any women in hackerspaces have stories of sexism they'd like to share with me for an article".</span>
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<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 19px;">One of your questions in your form is: "</span>
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px; font-weight: bold;">Have you had any experiences of sexism, misogyny, harassment, or assault in a hackerspace?</span>
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<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 19px;">Given your invitation I would suggest that you've already skewed your results.</span>
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On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Madelynn Martiniere
<span><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:mmartiniere@gmail.com">mmartiniere@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:
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Just because hackers haven't written on this topic doesn't mean it isn't true. Most women won't come out and discuss sexism and misogyny in hackerspaces for fear of retribution or general disregard.
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<br /> On that note, maybe it's time for an article from hackers. If any women in hackerspaces have stories of sexism they'd like to share with me for an article, I put together a quick form:
<a target="_blank" href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1FzjcEeNgzZfqdkhe3_6EU-Mp_xau4ppaOfN2o2vTMWU/viewform">https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1FzjcEeNgzZfqdkhe3_6EU-Mp_xau4ppaOfN2o2vTMWU/viewform</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com">matt</a>
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<span style="color: #9fa2a5;"><span style="padding-left: 6px;">January 26, 2014 8:22 PM</span></span>
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none of those links are from hackers or hacker related sources.
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<a target="_blank" href="mailto:albill@openbuddha.com">Al Billings</a>
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<span style="color: #9fa2a5;"><span style="padding-left: 6px;">January 26, 2014 8:17 PM</span></span>
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A list of links about hacker culture and diversity for your reading pleasure.
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<a target="_blank" href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052414/sexism-in-the-tech-industry-takes-center-stage">http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052414/sexism-in-the-tech-industry-takes-center-stage</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="https://www.fsinf.at/dear-hacker-community-%E2%80%93-we-need-talk">https://www.fsinf.at/dear-hacker-community-%E2%80%93-we-need-talk</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="http://blogs.westword.com/showandtell/2013/09/the_problem_of_dickwolves.php">http://blogs.westword.com/showandtell/2013/09/the_problem_of_dickwolves.php</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57495650-83/sexism-and-the-single-hacker-defcons-feminist-moment/">http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57495650-83/sexism-and-the-single-hacker-defcons-feminist-moment/</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/03/richards-affair-and-misogyny-in-tech/">http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/03/richards-affair-and-misogyny-in-tech/</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="http://pando.com/2013/08/31/hackers-and-sexism-at-defcon/">http://pando.com/2013/08/31/hackers-and-sexism-at-defcon/</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="http://io9.com/5938698/the-great-geek-sexism-debate">http://io9.com/5938698/the-great-geek-sexism-debate</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="http://blogs.osuosl.org/gchaix/2010/11/07/open-source-misogyny/">http://blogs.osuosl.org/gchaix/2010/11/07/open-source-misogyny/</a>
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<a target="_blank" href="mailto:noiddicle@gmail.com">Red Davies</a>
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<span style="color: #9fa2a5;"><span style="padding-left: 6px;">January 26, 2014 8:11 PM</span></span>
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or Al, we don't accept people who display those traits in the first place then we don't need to worry about it.
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Perhaps that's the problem you have. If you're inclusive of assholes then you have to have rules, policies and signs. I hate to tell you, but rules, policies and signs do not change assholes. They embolden them.
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<a target="_blank" href="mailto:albill@openbuddha.com">Al Billings</a>
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<span style="color: #9fa2a5;"><span style="padding-left: 6px;">January 26, 2014 7:56 PM</span></span>
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You mean one that someone said something about. How do you know that female visitors haven’t simply failed to return because of leering, mainsplaining, or various other behaviors? You don’t. The fact that you’re unwilling to even state a public policy against such things mean that when (not if but when) they happen, women won’t necessarily assume that the person is an outlier but that it is accepted behavior. Then they leave.
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Really, it is like Diversity 101 here. You’ve never bothered to think about any of this stuff before from something other than your own point of view, have you?
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<hr />From:
<span style="color: black;">Red Davies</span>
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:noiddicle@gmail.com">Red Davies</a>
<br /> Reply:
<span style="color: black;">Hackerspaces General Discussion List</span>
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<br />Date:
<span style="color: black;">January 26, 2014 at 7:56:18 PM</span>
<br /> To:
<span style="color: black;">Hackerspaces General Discussion List</span>
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>
<br />Subject:
<span style="color: black;"> Re: [hackerspaces] Safe Space Policies? <br /> </span>
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<span style="font-family: helvetica,arial; font-size: 13px;"></span>--
<br />Al Billings
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<a target="_blank" href="http://makehacklearn.org">http://makehacklearn.org</a>
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<span style="color: #9fa2a5;"><span style="padding-left: 6px;">January 26, 2014 7:56 PM</span></span>
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So, I can answer that question easily.
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When people walk into the space they are always welcomed. You know, by an individual and not a fucking sign. We welcome them, ask them what their interests are, introduce them to people who have similar interests, give them the 2c tour, get them to sign a waiver and GENUINELY welcome them in on the basis that they are breathing[0] and interested in the same stuff we are.
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<br />A sign is worthless if you don't have a community that lives it.
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If you have a community that lives it then the sign is redundant.
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<br />We've had one case of lecherous behavior towards a female guest. We made **him** the prey. Once he became prey he learned **WHY** his behavior was unacceptable (and we never saw him again). That's a two-for-one!
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Red
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[0] To be clear, zombies would probably be welcome too - we've just not tried recruiting any by, you know... hanging out in graveyards, political rallies etc...
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<span style="color: #000000;">Madelynn Martiniere<br /> Community Engineer. Entrepreneur. Geek.<br /> </span>
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<span style="color: #000000;"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/madelynnmartiniere">LinkedIn</a> </span>|
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.twitter.com/creativetaboo">Twitter </a>|
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:madelynn@women2.com">Email</a>
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