<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Thank you Will. Your answer is most helpful. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>We will definitely start inquiring about insurance once our Hayward Hackerspace finds a space. In terms of the other place, they have placed all children's activities at the hackerspace temporarily on hold and I spoke to the parents of the kids and we have decided that we didn;t want to return there if it is the same landlord. Meaning we will return to the hackerspace if they should find another suitable place to hold their events. We don't want the kids to experience another run in with the landlord again. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">What has been the youngest hackerspace visitor? </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">What do you do about teenagers?</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>Carolyn</span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Will Bradley <bradley.will@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Hackerspaces General Discussion List <discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, September 14, 2013 2:56 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [hackerspaces] Insurance, liability and kids<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv1519917913"><div dir="ltr">Oh and remember, safety is a cultural mindset. You can buy all the signs and insurance and sign all the waivers you want, but it's <i>every participant's </i>responsibility to behave safely and call out potential hazards before they become a problem. As leaders, it's
your responsibility to instill this <i>in</i> everyone, not to shoulder the burden of ensuring safety <i>for</i> them. <div>
<br></div><div>So if your landlord doesn't get a safe vibe from your operations, he has good reason to freak out even if you've covered your asses. We've got the opposite problem: people who interrogate us about insurance and being bonded (do we need to / should we be bonded? Serious question.) despite our community having a very safe mindset and track record.</div>
</div><div class="yiv1519917913gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="yiv1519917913gmail_quote">On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 2:50 AM, Will Bradley <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:bradley.will@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bradley.will@gmail.com">bradley.will@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv1519917913gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">
Carolyn, our space (HeatSync Labs in Arizona) allows kids but "treats them like adults" -- in other words we don't babysit anyone at any age, if you need supervision then your parent must (really, actively) supervise you. Our liability waiver has a section for minors which we make the minor sign (so they know to be responsible) and the parent sign (so it's legal.) We also heavily encourage parents to attend WITH their kids or at least tour the place and understand what kinds of dangers are present, so they're adequately informed. One parent actually sent her kid to us to do something dangerous because she trusted us better than she trusted herself (jee, thanks! But it turned out alright.)</div>
<div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">
Our space is somewhat divided, the front is tables and the back is shop; at the entrance to the back we have a sign that says minors must be accompanied by an adult.</div><div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">
<br></div><div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">We've got liability and accident insurance and have told our insurer that we do host classes with minors and what kinds of classes we teach. They didn't seem to think it was a big deal; I'm sure we're in a similar category as summer camps or scouts. The people who freak out most about this tend to be "backseat driver" types who have plenty of time to be worried and write emails but not much time to actually show up, discuss things, research things, or improve things. Our insurer and lawyer certainly don't freak out about these things.</div>
<div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">
If our landlord was making a fuss, I'd coordinate something with the board / select group of members to meet with them and discuss any concerns. It's important to maintain a good relationship with your business partners so they're on your side, if they're freaking out it may be because they weren't told about something they consider important. Or maybe they just hate kids. I feel you can defuse the situation by explaining the various precautions taken; kids aren't necessarily a huge risk especially if the parents are there, forms are signed, and insurance is purchased. You can get a million dollars of "accidentally blew up the building" insurance for cheap, easy way to calm down a landlord. Accident/injury insurance isn't too expensive either, just bite the bullet and call.</div>
<div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">
If you're having trouble finding an insurer, contact me directly and I'll refer you to HeatSync's insurers. </div></div><div class="yiv1519917913HOEnZb"><div class="yiv1519917913h5"><div class="yiv1519917913gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="yiv1519917913gmail_quote">
On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:26 AM, rachel lyra hospodar <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv1519917913gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">hi carolyn,<br>
<br>
1. Have you heard of mothership hacker moms? it's a hackerspace in the east bay for moms (and other people), with childcare. I don't know how much is about moms hacking and how much is about kids hacking, but they probably have some good info for you.<br>
<br>
2. Insurance, etc is the details. Don't sweat the small stuff, but do get insurance. You'll be able to, it will just take, uh, doing so. Most commercial landlords wouldn't be so lax about it, and then scream in your face when they remember that they forgot.<br>
<br>
3. sudo room's landlord is unusually insane.<br>
<br>
4. doing a project on a large enough scale to require renting space will usually bring you into contact with some insane people.<br>
<br>
5. rubin is a dick (hi rubin!), but if you are hoping to do any organizing of a hackerspace i hope you do it from your own email address, or one that is designed to be shared (eg <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:outreach@hayhackers.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:outreach@hayhackers.com">outreach@hayhackers.com</a>). It is less confusing and will help keep narrow minded hackers from underestimating you.<br>
<br>
6. people who underestimate you are wrong.<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
R.</font></span><div><div><br>
<br>
On 9/4/2013 3:57 PM, john lunger wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="yiv1519917913gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div>
<br>
We were visitors of this particular hackerspace last night so I don;t<br>
know the exact details of things in term of whose name is on the<br>
nonprofit incorporating forms or even if it is nonprofit incorporated at<br>
all.<br>
I am actually thinking of starting a hackerspace myself and wanted it to<br>
be kid friendly.<br>
When I say kid friendly I mean separate rooms for the adult stuff (all<br>
the dangerous tools/chemicals/ewaste) and the kids stuff (tables,<br>
chairs, soldering irons, sparkfun electronic kits, popsicle sticks, glue<br>
gun, glitter, Legos, Snap Circuits, Squishy Circuits etc (Parents would<br>
be required to stay with the children).<br>
<br>
Would insurance be more feasible with this kind of set up instead? Could<br>
we get separate insurance policies for each space. One for the adult<br>
section/one for the kids section? I would love for them to have a common<br>
area which would only have couches, tables, chairs, musical instruments<br>
but not sure after last night how that would work out because they you<br>
would have to worry about fingerprinting/ of random adults interacting<br>
with minors.<br>
<br>
Our group is moving much more slowly and methodically than other<br>
hackerspaces because of the involvement of children. We are going to try<br>
and dot our i's and cross our t's and deal with all the steps needed for<br>
everything to be covered if that is possible.<br>
<br>
So that is why I am asking all these questions. But given what happened<br>
last night I having 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th thoughts about starting one at<br>
all.<br>
<br>
You can check our sad website at <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.hayhackers.org/">www.hayhackers.org</a><br>
<br>
Carolyn<br>
<br>
<br>
<br></div></div><div>
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