<div dir="ltr">Interesting thoughts on the subject. I know a bit about law, although I am not a lawyer, no am I able to give legal advice.<div><br></div><div>First, to be clear, anyone may be sued at any time for any reason. It can get thrown out of court quickly if it's obviously stupid, but usually if there's a problem, it isn't.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Second of all, someone needs to tell that landlord that he leased out the building and has relinquished control of it. He is only increasing his liability by hanging about the place and acting like he's responsible. The landlord is only responsible if there is a building condition (broken floorboard, vicious plumbing, etc.) that caused the damage. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't sue. (See above.)</div>
<div><br></div><div>Now, I kind of hate tort law, but there are some principles that matter here:</div><div><br></div><div>Unusually dangerous activity: When an activity is not the normal sort (such as Matt's metal shavings problem) it falls into this category. Law students love these because it's strict liability, fast track to liability. They don't have to show that a duty was breached because it's inherently dangerous. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Assuming the risk: When kids play baseball, or whatever extreme sports kids are into these days, they know that there's a danger and accept that there is risk involved, but do it anyway. That's why you'll see "assume the risk" crop up on waivers. It's how all the crazy shit that goes on in the bay area (fire arts festival anyone?) could possibly happen. (And why Burning Man has not been sued out of existence.) Oh, and kids (under 18) can't legally sign waivers, although they can assume the risk. Best to get their parents in on it.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Finally, insurance companies know all this. They have pretty good lawyers. That means that when there is a problem, they're poised to respond. As a result, this kind of insurance isn't all that expensive. It's definitely worth having if for no other reason than you don't have to worry about what happens if people hurt themselves and someone else has to deal with it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Christie</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">________</span><br><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:small">Freedom of expression is the matrix, the indispensable condition, of nearly every other form of freedom.</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:small">
- Justice Benjamin N. Cardozo</div></div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
If you're interested in my work, </div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Videos of my talks can be found here: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/longobord" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/user/longobord</a></div>
<div style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Slides from my talks are here: <a href="http://www.slideshare.net/ChristieDudley" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.slideshare.net/ChristieDudley</a></div>
<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">My papers can be found here: </span><a href="http://ssrn.com/author=1999441" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" target="_blank">http://ssrn.com/author=1999441</a></div>
</div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Gui Cavalcanti <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gui@artisansasylum.com" target="_blank">gui@artisansasylum.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div class="im">
> All you have to do, is write a statement that you (the
leasor/rentor)
are taking responsibility <br>
> for whatever happens in the space and
absolving the landlord of any liability.<br>
<br></div>
Yeah, that's just not true, especially in the US. No waiver in the
world (even your own membership waivers! food for thought!) prevents
lawsuits from being filed against you, your landlords, your members,
etc, if the plaintiff can make a case that their actions (whether
active or simply permissive) contributed to the situation. Waivers
are just another piece of evidence that a judge considers after the
case has hit the local papers and both parties have spent thousands
of dollars on lawyers. Some waivers are better than others, but none
have the power to magically prevent a lawsuit. In this case, if the
landlord now knows you're allowing kids in the facility, and knows
the facility isn't appropriate for kids, they can now be sued for
negligence because they knew ahead of time you were conducting these
inappropriate actions in their facilities and they didn't do
anything about it. Furthermore, if the landlord *didn't* know, and
gets sued because something happens in their facilities, they can
easily turn around and sue you for every dollar of their legal
expenses plus damages because you broke your lease requirements.<br>
<br>
(Side note: A space in our area nearly got shut down by building
inspectors and fire marshals because a separate entity was running a
summer camp in their facility. The situation was only resolved when
the kids were kicked out. Local building code has specific
requirements for children that go above and beyond requirements for
adults, so if your space is only up to code for adult use, you may
very well have a serious problem with local building inspectors and
fire marshals [in addition to landlords and insurance companies] if
you're trying to introduce kids into it)<br>
<br>
If you have a commercial lease in the United States, I'm almost 100%
sure that there is a requirement in your lease for your space to
have insurance that covers the landlord as additional insured. What
this means is that the landlord's legal expenses are covered by
*your insurance* in case they get sued - nothing more, nothing less.
Again, this doesn't mean they can't get sued in the first place - if
you're not behaving according to your lease, and they know about it
(and are thus allowing it), the ball is in their court to kick you
out or force you to change your behavior.<br>
<br>
On top of all this - even if you ARE insured, but your insurance
doesn't cover kids, or your lease doesn't allow for uses that
include kids, your insurance will not pay for your legal expenses,
or your landlord's legal expenses, if you get sued because a kid
gets hurt.<br>
<br>
Artisan's Asylum has been working really hard to get any events with
children covered by our insurance, to no avail. We're working with a
specialty insurance company, and they've been unwilling to take the
risk given our mix of membership, classes, and constant presence of
easily-accessible dangerous tools. I can guarantee you that if you
haven't told your insurance that there are children in your facility
beforehand, their presence is not covered by your existing policy.
Any interaction with children is an additional consideration and
line item on your general liability & property insurance.<br>
<br>
What we've found from surveying craft spaces around our area is that
in general, educationally-focused hands-on spaces (like craft
schools, vocational schools, etc.) are allowed by insurance
companies to have kids' programs, because the kids are in a
controlled environment and the insurance company can require things
like having all instructors submit to CORI background checks. Once
you add free-roaming membership into the mix, and change the
environment to be one where random adults are interacting with the
children in unstructured ways, insurance companies freak out. We, at
least, haven't found one that will both insure adult
membership-based activities and even something as simple as kids
classes. We have some examples of spaces near us where the whole
space is devoted to kids - these spaces generally have a Makerbot or
two and a whole bunch of building kits like legos, duplo, etc., but
not many 'real' power tools. We're still working with our insurance
company to try and find a solution, and are 1 year into the
conversation.<br>
<br>
<b>TL,DR: Adding kids to makerspaces and hackerspaces is a recipe
for disaster for those who aren't willing to do their homework.
Landlords and insurance companies are well within their rights to
shut you down if you don't play by the rules.</b><br>
<br>
For more info about makerspace/hackerspace insurance, check out this
article I wrote up a while ago for MAKE:
<a href="http://makezine.com/2013/05/23/making-makerspaces-acquiring-insurance/" target="_blank">http://makezine.com/2013/05/23/making-makerspaces-acquiring-insurance/</a><br>
<br>
-Gui<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 9/4/2013 2:39 PM, Mark Janssen
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I would like a deep discussion about insurance, liability and kids.
[...rampage of landlord...]
According to the adults he was complaining about some kind of liability
issue and insurance among other things.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>All you have to do, is write a statement that you (the leasor/rentor)
are taking responsibility for whatever happens in the space and
absolving the landlord of any liability.
--
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington
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</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><pre cols="72">--
Gui Cavalcanti, Founder
Artisan's Asylum, Inc.
<a href="http://www.artisansasylum.com" target="_blank">http://www.artisansasylum.com</a>
Cell: <a href="tel:%28857%29%20366-9599" value="+18573669599" target="_blank">(857) 366-9599</a> (NEW)</pre>
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