<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Bryan,</span><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"> Just so I may understand, Are you saying that there are elements of diversity and technical excellence that are dichotomous? If so, you are saying that there are limitations to both implying each other's presence and one has to be aware of both of them when forming a group?</font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"> - Ethan/spacefelix, Mojave Makers<br></font><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:discuss-request@lists.hackerspaces.org" target="_blank">discuss-request@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: [Open Manufacturing] Problems with Open Source Ecology. A<br>
Perspective (Lisha Sterling)<br>
2. Re: [Open Manufacturing] Problems with Open Source Ecology. A<br>
Perspective (<a href="mailto:randall.arnold@texrat.net">randall.arnold@texrat.net</a>)<br>
3. Re: [Open Manufacturing] Problems with Open Source Ecology. A<br>
Perspective (Bryan Bishop)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:35:08 +0000<br>
From: Lisha Sterling <<a href="mailto:lishevita@gmail.com">lishevita@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Hackerspaces General Discussion List<br>
<<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>><br>
Cc: Open Manufacturing <<a href="mailto:openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com">openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com</a>>, Catarina<br>
Mota <<a href="mailto:catarina@openmaterials.org">catarina@openmaterials.org</a>>, The Open Source Hardware<br>
Association Discussion List <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.oshwa.org">discuss@lists.oshwa.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] [Open Manufacturing] Problems with Open<br>
Source Ecology. A Perspective<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAGtcwXJNf8gsohwWM2S=<a href="mailto:wbQPWsvvfBc3GDiM6NGT6smp_YvJ0Q@mail.gmail.com">wbQPWsvvfBc3GDiM6NGT6smp_YvJ0Q@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On 20 July 2013 21:33, Bryan Bishop <<a href="mailto:kanzure@gmail.com">kanzure@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> I have never seen definitive proof that any of that reasoning is right.<br>
> "Diversity of people" just means "get a lot of people together, and hope<br>
> that they are all equitable to each other", which has very little to do<br>
> with engineering.... sorry.<br>
><br>
><br>
Oh, wow, seriously? That's what you think "Diversity of people" means?<br>
No.<br>
<br>
"Diversity of people" means to look beyond your small group of<br>
friends, your in circle, and find opinions that do not match your own to<br>
critique your ideas and add their own. Diversity of people is how we get<br>
things like accessibility built into products the first time around,<br>
instead of as an afterthought. It's how we get internationalization built<br>
into the basic underpinnings of what we do. It's how we, as engineers,<br>
discover that there are issues that we never thought to plan for when we<br>
started designing this thing, whatever this current thing happens to be.<br>
<br>
I remember a time when Amazon's code was built for the US market<br>
only and had to be beaten into submission to work in Europe and Japan. Not<br>
building internationalization into the system from the get go cost Amazon a<br>
ton of money. There are still startups making that same mistake today, but<br>
those with someone from somewhere other than the US who the management<br>
actually pay any attention to are far less likely to make that error. Even<br>
other English speaking countries need internationalization to deal with<br>
different date formats, different currency formats, etc.<br>
<br>
I remember a time when almost no corporate website was navigable<br>
by speech browser. Here's this great moment in which the world is getting<br>
smaller and smaller every day, people can buy nearly everything online,<br>
check books out of their library online, visit museums virtually online,<br>
even interact with their government online, but all the people with sight<br>
impairments are frustratingly shut out of the adventure. Because the voices<br>
of people with various needs were heard during the specifications process,<br>
there were tools available to developers to make everything accessible, but<br>
almost no one considered it important in the 90's or even the early 00's.<br>
Even now, most sites out there miss something in the translation from<br>
sighted browser to speech browser -- the layout is not the same, navigation<br>
is a mess, the alt tags are nonexistent or completely useless. It's as if<br>
people decided to built ramps over part of their stairway for accessibility<br>
and then dropped nails and tar in random parts of the ramps as they were<br>
heading up to patch the roof! If you have a "diversity of people" giving<br>
feedback, you find this out and can fix it.<br>
<br>
So, this question of bringing a diversity of people to the table to<br>
discuss issues around open source ecology makes perfect sense. If you are<br>
building tools just for yourself and your friends, then the only people you<br>
need to speak to are people just like you that you know you will get along<br>
with. If you are building tools for a wider audience, then you'd better get<br>
wider feedback along the way or you're gonna have a lot of work to fix your<br>
mistakes later on.<br>
<br>
- Lisha<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:10:50 +0000<br>
From: <<a href="mailto:randall.arnold@texrat.net">randall.arnold@texrat.net</a>><br>
To: Hackerspaces General Discussion List<br>
<<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>><br>
Cc: Open Manufacturing <<a href="mailto:openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com">openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com</a>>, Catarina<br>
Mota <<a href="mailto:catarina@openmaterials.org">catarina@openmaterials.org</a>>, The Open Source Hardware<br>
Association Discussion List <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.oshwa.org">discuss@lists.oshwa.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] [Open Manufacturing] Problems with Open<br>
Source Ecology. A Perspective<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:0LvUhH-1U2J1a0NIh-010Ypd@mrelay.perfora.net">0LvUhH-1U2J1a0NIh-010Ypd@mrelay.perfora.net</a>><br>
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<br>
Beautifully put, Lisha. We need to keep knocking down the misconceptions of diversity at every opportunity.<br>
<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
Tarrant Makers<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Lisha Sterling<br>
Sent: ?Sunday?, ?21? ?July?, ?2013 ?5?:?35? ?AM<br>
To: Hackerspaces General Discussion List<br>
Cc: Open Manufacturing; Catarina Mota; The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List<br>
<br>
<br>
On 20 July 2013 21:33, Bryan Bishop <<a href="mailto:kanzure@gmail.com">kanzure@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I have never seen definitive proof that any of that reasoning is right. "Diversity of people" just means "get a lot of people together, and hope that they are all equitable to each other", which has very little to do with engineering.... sorry.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Oh, wow, seriously? That's what you think "Diversity of people" means? No.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
"Diversity of people" means to look beyond your small group of friends, your in circle, and find opinions that do not match your own to critique your ideas and add their own. Diversity of people is how we get things like accessibility built into products the first time around, instead of as an afterthought. It's how we get internationalization built into the basic underpinnings of what we do. It's how we, as engineers, discover that there are issues that we never thought to plan for when we started designing this thing, whatever this current thing happens to be.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I remember a time when Amazon's code was built for the US market only and had to be beaten into submission to work in Europe and Japan. Not building internationalization into the system from the get go cost Amazon a ton of money. There are still startups making that same mistake today, but those with someone from somewhere other than the US who the management actually pay any attention to are far less likely to make that error. Even other English speaking countries need internationalization to deal with different date formats, different currency formats, etc.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I remember a time when almost no corporate website was navigable by speech browser. Here's this great moment in which the world is getting smaller and smaller every day, people can buy nearly everything online, check books out of their library online, visit museums virtually online, even interact with their government online, but all the people with sight impairments are frustratingly shut out of the adventure. Because the voices of people with various needs were heard during the specifications process, there were tools available to developers to make everything accessible, but almost no one considered it important in the 90's or even the early 00's. Even now, most sites out there miss something in the translation from sighted browser to speech browser -- the layout is not the same, navigation is a mess, the alt tags are nonexistent or completely useless. It's as if people decided to built ramps over part of their stairway for accessibility and then dropped nails and<br>
tar in random parts of the ramps as they were heading up to patch the roof! If you have a "diversity of people" giving feedback, you find this out and can fix it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
So, this question of bringing a diversity of people to the table to discuss issues around open source ecology makes perfect sense. If you are building tools just for yourself and your friends, then the only people you need to speak to are people just like you that you know you will get along with. If you are building tools for a wider audience, then you'd better get wider feedback along the way or you're gonna have a lot of work to fix your mistakes later on.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
- Lisha<br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:27:08 -0500<br>
From: Bryan Bishop <<a href="mailto:kanzure@gmail.com">kanzure@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Lisha Sterling <<a href="mailto:lishevita@gmail.com">lishevita@gmail.com</a>>, Bryan Bishop<br>
<<a href="mailto:kanzure@gmail.com">kanzure@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Open Manufacturing <<a href="mailto:openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com">openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com</a>>,<br>
Hackerspaces General Discussion List <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org">discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org</a>>,<br>
Catarina Mota <<a href="mailto:catarina@openmaterials.org">catarina@openmaterials.org</a>>, The Open Source Hardware<br>
Association Discussion List <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.oshwa.org">discuss@lists.oshwa.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] [Open Manufacturing] Problems with Open<br>
Source Ecology. A Perspective<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CABaSBaxnteux=f4gq_iXRemCDH=<a href="mailto:H9DRNeFgE7VpzRtVPjpG4CQ@mail.gmail.com">H9DRNeFgE7VpzRtVPjpG4CQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 5:35 AM, Lisha Sterling <<a href="mailto:lishevita@gmail.com">lishevita@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> "Diversity of people" means to look beyond your small group of friends, your<br>
> in circle, and find opinions that do not match your own to critique your<br>
> ideas and add their own.<br>
<br>
Regarding Amazon's failure to implement internationalization, that's<br>
probably because of priorities and not because your developers are<br>
idiots. Sorry, but Amazon's a business, and they had to make decisions<br>
about what to tackle. I am not privy to the exact circumstances, but<br>
I'm sure there are developers that were hired early on that have<br>
previously implemented accessibility and internationalization before.<br>
It's really hard not to have already done that if you've done any<br>
programming-- most libraries practically force it on you.... Regarding<br>
a "diversity of people", just getting a group of diverse people<br>
together (like the open hardware format commitees that were recently<br>
assembled) doesn't mean you are exhibiting any of the signs of<br>
technical excellence. Responding to peer review, understanding<br>
existing standards, would be a great start, for instance...<br>
<br>
- Bryan<br>
<a href="http://heybryan.org/" target="_blank">http://heybryan.org/</a><br>
<a href="tel:1%20512%20203%200507" value="+15122030507">1 512 203 0507</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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End of Discuss Digest, Vol 59, Issue 13<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>