<p>In the us, the requirement of insurance is a forgone conclusion. It is usually tied to the legal formation of corporations. Even in a 501.3c scenario, you exist as a for profit entity for some time until officially recognized.</p>
<p>If someone's personal name is on a lease, or if your organization has founders... these names will turn up in any legal inquiry and likely be drawn into stuff.</p>
<p>In the US, when someone is injured, their health insurance provider will get involved. No ifs ands or buts. They will investigate and given any opportunity will sue everyone and their mother to recoup cost or avoid paying the claim. </p>
<p>To operate without insurance or proper organizational paperwork in the us would be stupid and irresponsible. For a variety of reasons extending beyond this.</p>
<p>Squatting, in the us, is not an acceptable situation for this very reason. Using a persons home, the same. It would put the home owner in direct personal risk.</p>
<p>I agree this is morally wrong, functionally self defeating, and damned near incomprehensibly stupid, but it is what it is for now.</p>
<p>It just takes a second, one moment of lapse in awareness for someone to get hurt. I've seen very cautious people get hurt doing mundane tasks. During a board etching demonstration a friend of mine accidently inhaled a lungful of ferric chloride fumes. Messed him up good and proper. Could have easily ended up in the hospital. Boom, insurance at the door..</p>
<p>Do you have proper signage? Ventilation? In a properly zoned area? Chemicals stored properly according to municipal codes? Etc etc etc...</p>
<p>Boom lawsuit.</p>
<p>Now members are being deposed. People with their names attached to the organization or the event could end up being named directly in the suit...</p>
<p>This isn't a worst case scenario... this is how this works.</p>
<p>They will sue everyone and anyone they have a chance to, sadly what makes our hackerspaces special, also makes for a tremendous legal liability. And I don't care if the only person saddled with massive legal debt is the organization... that's fine. But if someone ends up personally on the hook for a few hundred thousand.... that's life changing.</p>
<p> No one wants that.</p>
<p>So, if you are of the mindset goddamn the torpedoes full speed ahead, well then so be it, but for the love of god please be aware of what you are getting yourself into. Talk to a lawyer. Be responsible. When you do end up in court, showing that you went out of your way to establish a safe and legal workshop will definitely help you, even if you ignore some of the advice entirely.</p>
<p>Also, read the shit you sign. This is not an eula. You can't say your cat signed it.</p>
<p>And to the guys in european squats, personally I get that you aren't subject to a lot lof this... but I still believe you are acting irresponsibly in turning an abandoned property into a public venue. I would recommend to you, that if you are squatting, you do not invite people who are not familiar with the situation into your spaces. It would be a minor form of duplicity to do so at the very least.</p>
<p>When you open your doors to the public at large, whether legally required to do so or not you take on a huge responsibility to ensure basic requirements are met for your guests. That's a universal given. Water, toilets, a safe environment, adequate safeguards against fires and other reasonably potentional risks. It's a society accepted universal ethical code of conduct that hosts provide these things to their guests. If you are unable to provide all of these things, then you cannot in good conscience open your doors.</p>
<p>That's my feeling on the subject.</p>
<p>Do I think kids should be able to risk injury using solderingn irons and power tools? Absolutely. But I think for younger kids parents need to be a part of that for a ton of reasons. Would I trust a 16 year old alone in a shop? In a case by case basis yes I definitely would. Should this matter... hell yes it should. In the USA however, we have very bad laws that make this very difficult to make happen without establishing a legal war chest. and so, regardless of what I want the world to be, I have to operate in regards to how it is. Demonstrating that kids can work with tools and that this hands on pursuit of knowledge is valuable.... is absolutely paramount in changing the way things are, and we NEED to pursue that as a society and as a culture. But we should be responsible in choosing how to best do that.</p>
<p>This is where FIRST sponsorship, and relationships with established public resources such as libraries and museums comes into play in a very big way. Jump all over this stuff. Donate some weekends to a workshop at a science museum or library. Donate some evening to helping kids build a robot at school. Be involved, build a case for removing this stupid legislation. Shouting, this is wrong has never been anywhere nearly as effective as demonstrating what is right. And that's the very essence of what hackerspaces were born from. </p>
<p>Anyways that's my rambling early am thoughts on the subject.</p>
<p>-Matt</p>
<p><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 27, 2010 8:14 AM, "Ron Bean" <<a href="mailto:bucketworks@rbean.users.panix.com">bucketworks@rbean.users.panix.com</a>> wrote:<br><br><p><font color="#500050">asbesto <<a href="mailto:asbesto@freaknet.org">asbesto@freaknet.org</a>> writes:
>So, for us, an "hackerspace" is our home. Many of the times...</font></p>Squatting is different from having your name on a lease. Landlords<br>
usually require us to have insurance. Insurance companies have their own<br>
requirements.<br>
<br>
Also, bringing in kids you don't know is different from a member<br>
bringing in his own kids.<br>
<br>
We had one landlord express some concern about kids from the nearby<br>
technical high school, because they sometimes start fights in the<br>
neighborhood. Our response was "those kinds of kids usually aren't<br>
interested."<br>
<p><font color="#500050">
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Discuss mailing list
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