hey i don't think this message suppose to get to me.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 8:48 PM, dosman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dosman@packetsniffers.org">dosman@packetsniffers.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Thanks everyone for responding. Nicolle, I believe we met briefly at<br>
Notacon via Eric. We do intend to consult a local lawyer, but from<br>
what it sounds like we should do that before doing much else. It also<br>
sounds like the legalzoom "instant corporation" could be useful, but<br>
only if you already know what you are getting into or else it could be<br>
a double edged sword. We will certainly be working with other non-<br>
profits in our area to get help too. We also understand that the<br>
bylaws/articles of incorporation need to be ironed out with specifics<br>
met to appease the IRS beast.<br>
<br>
I am still interested in others experiences with the 501(c)3 paperwork<br>
since that is federal and a common process regardless of the state.<br>
I'm not looking for legally binding advice, just curious what others<br>
experiences have been regarding to "hackers get tax-exempt status " -<br>
what the IRS liked or didn't like about your organization - with<br>
intent for others to avoid the potholes you drove through.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<font color="#888888">-dosman<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On May 28, 2009, at 1:46 PM, nicolle wrote:<br>
<br>
> Beth, dr.kaos is correct...i am the lawyer for Pumping Station: One,<br>
> and<br>
> i am giving a talk at Defcon about the legal concerns of starting a<br>
> hackerspace. i don't intend for the talk (or anything i say on this<br>
> list, for that matter...) to substitute for consulting an<br>
> attorney...but<br>
> it's extremely helpful to know what you're getting into, and extremely<br>
> helpful to be able to ask the right questions and be familiar with the<br>
> issues, especially if you're discussing your situation with a lawyer<br>
> who<br>
> may not be familiar with what hackerspaces entail.<br>
><br>
> i definitely echo the thought that it's a good idea to talk to a real,<br>
> live lawyer about legal concerns. corporate formation is mostly<br>
> straightforward...but the key word there, i think, is mostly. each<br>
> state has its own requirements for incorporating, and then there is<br>
> certain information that needs to be in the articles of incorporation<br>
> and the bylaws to lay the groundwork for 501(c)(3), if you're planning<br>
> to go that route.<br>
><br>
> the need to talk to an attorney goes beyond corporate formation,<br>
> though,<br>
> because that's not the only legal issue that's going to pop up.<br>
> you're<br>
> going to have to deal with zoning and lease negotiation. you're going<br>
> to have to deal with liability issues for members and guests. legally<br>
> advising a single hackerspace is obviously not a full-time job, but<br>
> differing legal issues arise frequently enough that it's advisable to<br>
> talk to an attorney to make sure your ducks are in a row. a lot of<br>
> cities do have resources to turn to...pro bono attorneys for the arts,<br>
> and organizations and clinics that assist nonprofits for free. search<br>
> online, or ask the local bar association to point you in the right<br>
> direction.<br>
><br>
> nicolle<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> beth wrote:<br>
>> I agree with jur1st.<br>
>><br>
>> If you don't have time to find the same info on the web, these kits<br>
>> may be a good idea, but they just get you started and don't answer<br>
>> any<br>
>> questions.<br>
>><br>
>> Finding a local lawyers for the arts type group offering a clinic<br>
>> is a<br>
>> good idea, check with your local pro-bono org or bar assoc. too.<br>
>><br>
>> Also, simply finding a local non-profit with a mission that is like<br>
>> yours and asking them how they set up their organization/board and<br>
>> bylaws etc and what issues they ran into can be invaluable. Here in<br>
>> Atlanta, we found an arts organization that was set up specifically<br>
>> to<br>
>> provide old printing presses and offered classes on their use. Their<br>
>> mission was educational and creative. Alot of what they are doing<br>
>> could be translated to what we are doing (providing access to<br>
>> technology and education on how to use it).<br>
>><br>
>> Look at your area non-profits and ask them if they have someone who<br>
>> can spend some time via email/phone/inperson telling you how they got<br>
>> their 501c3 and how they overcame challenges and even what their<br>
>> bylaws say. Most will be happy to lend a hand and you may find fast<br>
>> friends and great resources too.<br>
>><br>
>> Filing these documents costs alot of money even without the lawyers,<br>
>> so you don't want to have to do it twice, or be denied status. It's<br>
>> worth a workshop/clinic fee.<br>
>><br>
>> (Also, dr.kaos, my better half, says there is a lawyer from Pumping<br>
>> Station One in Chicago giving a talk on this at defcon, go see it or<br>
>> get the recording after.)<br>
>><br>
>> Beth<br>
>><br>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 11:55 AM, jur1st wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> I recall a commercial for a national tax prep firm which made an<br>
>>> excellent point about products like Turbo Tax. When you get audited,<br>
>>> who are you going to ask for assistance? The software box?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Outfits like the ones you mention come with forms...that's it. No<br>
>>> way<br>
>>> to talk through the issues which you bring up later in your<br>
>>> message...no opportunity to discuss other legal issues or risk<br>
>>> management with an actual attorney.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> This culture is very DIY based...but legal and financial issues are<br>
>>> best handled by those that have backgrounds in law, tax, accounting<br>
>>> etc.<br>
>>><br>
>>> You may want to consult with a local or regional law school to see<br>
>>> if<br>
>>> they have clinics or professors who could help pro-bono.<br>
>>><br>
>>> -jur1st<br>
<br>
<br>
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