[hackerspaces] will the fruits of our labors be used for good or for evil?

Jordan Miller jrdnmlr at gmail.com
Mon Dec 5 01:00:30 CET 2011 

it's our money to begin with, as paying taxpayers. i don't really see the
possibility of the entire hackerspace movement being co-opted for
"nefarious" purposes. when was the last time you convinced your fellow
hacker to change his/her opinion on anything? thought so.

but the slippery slope argument has never held much weight with me anyway.

if you don't like DARPA or DoD then you should be protesting them directly.
that's your right as an American. but don't extrapolate to say that, on the
backside, any money going from those organizations directly back to the
population from whence it came is somehow tainted blood money and the
people receiving it must be sadistic soulless bastards.

awareness of agendas backing funds is always important from a clarity
standpoint. but I fail to see how hackerspace grant money which is free and
clear or how cancer research money being used to discover new treatments
are evil.

jordan



On Dec 4, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Al Billings <albill at openbuddha.com> wrote:

I'm saying that I agree with Mitch that it legitimizes DARPA whose end
goal, at the end of the day, is military research. By definition, military
research involves more efficient and effective ways of killing other human
beings. I'll take no part in that and I won't lend my name to their
projects. I'll also endeavor to keep my hackerspace from helping them
either.

They want to co-opt a ground up, grassroots movement, hackerspaces, for
their own ends. Why should we help them?

Al

On Dec 4, 2011, at 3:41 PM, Jordan Miller wrote:

so you're saying anyone doing anti-cancer research with grants from DoD is
evil?

jordan



On Dec 4, 2011, at 6:39 PM, Al Billings <albill at openbuddha.com> wrote:

I don't get a choice about paying my taxes unless I want to go to prison.
Most people are not willing to go to prisons. My wife and child would
prefer I didn't, leaving aside my personal feelings.

We ALL have choices about taking DARPA money for our projects. It isn't
involuntary. In fact, you have to make a *conscious* choice to take it and
explicitly buy into DARPA's agenda when you do so.

This is a straw man argument, in other words.

Al

On Dec 4, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Jordan Miller wrote:

so do none of you pay taxes either? that is where defense organizations get
their funding from, you know. so if you pay taxes you are necessarily
funding and forwarding these organizations you claim to abhor and protest.

take a chill pill people.

also, please realize DoD gives a LOT of grant money for breast cancer
research... not how to cause it, but how to CURE it. same for other
cancers. you see, population health is also a matter of national security.

the world is not black and white, last time I checked.

jordan



On Dec 4, 2011, at 5:57 PM, Mitch Altman < <maltman23 at hotmail.com>
maltman23 at hotmail.com> wrote:

 My view is a bit different.  You don't have to agree, but please
consider:  DARPA is a government agency that exists to further its goals.
It seems to me that those goals are to make things easier and better for
hurting and killing other people.  It seems to me that this is why they
exist.  If people working for DARPA are giving grant money away, it is
to further the goals of DARPA.  This isn't to say that good things can't be
done with DARPA money.  But DARPA is spending this money explicitly to
further the goals of DARPA -- and it *will* be used to further those goals.

Werner von Braun was an incredible visionary.  He wanted to explore space!
It was his lifelong dream.  He found an opportunity for funding his dream
when Hitler offered to pay for him to make rockets.  Those rockets were
used to destroy the lives of civilians in London in the form of V2
missiles.  After the war, he was eventually hired by NASA to make rockets
that eventually became the basis of the US space program.  Was this a good
trade off?  I know how I feel.  I don't want to tell others what to do, or
what to think or feel.  Please make up your own mind.

In my mind, I would rather change projects than hurt others in order to
fulfill the goals of my project.  But, before changing projects, perhaps
there are other means of funding it, or allowing the project to proceed.
Those other means are way worth exploring.

One other point I feel is worth considering:  A powerful method of
marketing is to associate PRODUCT X with a warm and fuzzy feeling.  Repeat
that enough times, and enough people subconsciously associate a warm-fuzzy
feeling with PRODUCT X, and sales of PRODUCT X go up some percentage.
PRODUCT X can be dish soap, a soft drink, a TV show, a political candidate,
a banana republic dictator, green-washing corporate image -- anything the
people paying for the marketing request.  PRODUCT X can also be DARPA.  If
we make more warm and fuzzy associations with DARPA (by using their money
for what we feel is *good*), then some people will more likely feel it is
OK to work for an agency to further the goals of DARPA -- and those goals
may not be in line with what you believe is of true benefit to you and
those around you.  Or it may.  Again, please think this through for
yourself.  And please make a conscious choice.

Best,
Mitch.

------------------------------
From: <willow.bl00 at gmail.com> <willow.bl00 at gmail.com>willow.bl00 at gmail.com
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:23:57 -0800
To: <jacob at heatsynclabs.org>jacob at heatsynclabs.org;
<discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org> <discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org>
discuss at lists.hackerspaces.org
Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] will the fruits of our labors be used for good
or for evil?

I set up the Town Hall in Seattle because I believe in mudge and I believe
this is an incredibly nuanced area. I wanted to offer people one more
option, and trust them to act in ways which align with their values and
concerns. Nothing like getting into the complicated world of humanitarian
and disaster response to teach you about multipurpose and nuance in these
sorts of things.

Any tool is a weapon if you hold it right.

I can go into more detail upon request when I have someone to transcribe
for me. I suck at these one-handed keboards still.

please excuse typos and delays. i seem to have broken my arm.
Willow Brugh // willowbl00 <http://blog.bl00cyb.org/>

School Factory <http://schoolfactory.org/> : GWOB <http://gwob.org/> ; Space
Federation <http://schoolfactory.org/content/space-federation-overview>
Schedule a meeting with me <https://tungle.me/willowbl00>



On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 22:16, Jacob Rosenthal <
<jjrosent at heatsynclabs.org><jjrosent at heatsynclabs.org>
jjrosent at heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

Willow (and separately Space Fed?) seem to be pimping it as well


On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 11:14 PM, Al Jigen Billings
<<albill at openbuddha.com><albill at openbuddha.com>
albill at openbuddha.com> wrote:

On 11/29/11 10:10 PM, Justis Peters wrote:

On 11/30/2011 12:44 AM, Al Jigen Billings wrote:

I'm also on the e-mail lists for a number of other hackerspaces and this is
a debate, on small scale, that many of them are having on their own. The
DoD money is being discussed quite a bit. So far, I think everyone has made
pretty much the same observations that I've made here and decided it was
money best left on the table. Maybe you and your space feel different but I
know of no one who has actually applied for the DoD money.

This finally makes more sense. Prior to this comment, I did not understand
where you got the idea that any hackerspace was considering taking money
from the DoD. Nobody on this list had suggested it.

Our space has not been approached by the DoD or DARPA and I doubt that we
would take money from them. All our funding thus far has been from
individuals donations and membership dues. We enjoy the autonomy that is
afforded to us by that model.


 As far as I know, no one has been approached personally. That said, the
DoD has put it out there. It has been blogged and tweeted about (I recall
something in one of the Wired blogs, something on Adafruit's blog, and
similar) so people are aware of it and discussing it.

Al


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